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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:53 pm
by shinatoo
Rabble wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:13 pm
shinatoo wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:44 am
Missouri river is gross and it's levels vary too much to put anything of value on it. It should be the back lot of KC. The more we can do to minimize it the better.
There are non-gross non-level varying rivers in the world?
Unknown. But the big muddy is on the high end of both of those.

Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:31 pm
by Rabble
shinatoo wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:53 pm
Rabble wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:13 pm
shinatoo wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:44 am
Missouri river is gross and it's levels vary too much to put anything of value on it. It should be the back lot of KC. The more we can do to minimize it the better.
There are non-gross non-level varying rivers in the world?
Unknown. But the big muddy is on the high end of both of those.
People in St. Joe water ski on the big muddy. I've boated on it several times and never thought it look any worse than pond water. I've also boated on the Seine and don't remember it's water looking any better. Thank god Paris didn't back door it.

Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:53 pm
by normalthings
Rabble wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:31 pm
shinatoo wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:53 pm
Rabble wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:13 pm


There are non-gross non-level varying rivers in the world?
Unknown. But the big muddy is on the high end of both of those.
People in St. Joe water ski on the big muddy. I've boated on it several times and never thought it look any worse than pond water. I've also boated on the Seine and don't remember it's water looking any better. Thank god Paris didn't back door it.
Aside from when sewage is dumped in at WB, the river is generally as clean or cleaner than the Lake of the Ozarks.The big issue on my mind is water level changes

Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:58 pm
by Riverite
TheLastGentleman wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:01 am
I doodled what I'm picturing from this discussion.

It would be expensive and complicated, sure, but what isn't? I could see a massive amount of spin off development and economic activity from something like this. You could have tour boats dock there from places like Parkville, have riverfront hotels and restaurants, ect ect


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It is the RIVER Market after all, and the current riverfront is looking pretty shabby right now.

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If there were restaurants with patios overlooking the river, even if they were shipping containers And there were no parking I think it would do crazy well. I for one would probably never leave

Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:02 pm
by TheLastGentleman
normalthings wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:53 pm
The big issue on my mind is water level changes
Many cities are able to negotiate that

London

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Paris

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Chicago

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Nashville

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:11 pm
by Rabble
normalthings wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:53 pm
Rabble wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:31 pm
shinatoo wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:53 pm


Unknown. But the big muddy is on the high end of both of those.
People in St. Joe water ski on the big muddy. I've boated on it several times and never thought it look any worse than pond water. I've also boated on the Seine and don't remember it's water looking any better. Thank god Paris didn't back door it.
Aside from when sewage is dumped in at WB, the river is generally as clean or cleaner than the Lake of the Ozarks.The big issue on my mind is water level changes
Ok, so maybe we can toss out the gross factor but what rivers in the world don't have changing water levels?

Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:31 pm
by Rabble
Riverite wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:58 pm

If there were restaurants with patios overlooking the river, even if they were shipping containers And there were no parking I think it would do crazy well. I for one would probably never leave
right on!

Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:40 pm
by normalthings
Rabble wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:11 pm
normalthings wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:53 pm
Rabble wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:31 pm


People in St. Joe water ski on the big muddy. I've boated on it several times and never thought it look any worse than pond water. I've also boated on the Seine and don't remember it's water looking any better. Thank god Paris didn't back door it.
Aside from when sewage is dumped in at WB, the river is generally as clean or cleaner than the Lake of the Ozarks.The big issue on my mind is water level changes
Ok, so maybe we can toss out the gross factor but what rivers in the world don't have changing water levels?
In the past 15 years, the river peaked at 37’ and got at low as 3’. It is really not uncommon to see a 15’+ change of depths in a non-flood year. MO river will see about 30 ft of change during flood years. Someone else can confirm, but I think that buildings would be required to sit above the designated flood plan which is something like 50 or 60 feet of river depth. Nashville is quite similar to KC in this way (they don't see as nearly as severe lows.) However, their riverfront buildings are both old and set back quite aways from the water. IF you go away from the landscaped area pictured above, the river bank quickly becomes a cliff.

The Chicago River (what LastGent and Rabble seem to be shooting for) is extremely consistent in depth. A 4' change in river level there is the difference between all good and extreme flooding. In KC, that is 21 would require a 21' increase. The Chicago River is extremely consistent whereas MO at KC can rise 10+ feet in a day.



Then you bring in the issue of construction near,along,and above an Army Corp levee. The recent CORE Apartment Complex had to receive federal approvals before the city would advance the permits because it sat xxx hundred or thousand feet from a levee. As others have mentioned, construction in the flood plain brings lending, insuring, permitting, and construction issues.

Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:32 am
by flyingember
normalthings wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:40 pm
I think that buildings would be required to sit above the designated flood plan which is something like 50 or 60 feet of river depth.

It’s not a perfect map, but the fema floodplain designation is helpful, search by zip code. they’re marking 750 feet elevation with the heaxagon markers so that must be a key height
https://msc.fema.gov/portal/home

https://sema.dps.mo.gov/programs/floodp ... -guide.pdf
Page 29 explains that zone Ae Determines the flood insurance premiums, probably for a single family home.

The Port authority development is clearly in an area of elevation closer to to the newer riverfront apartments like. 2nd and Delaware. So it’s possible they would need to sit that far up elsewhere

The river level average looks to be at about 725 feet, so all the development is in the 25 feet above river range. So above 50-60 feet of river depth makes sense

Those brand new senior apartments south of MO 9 at Briarcliff they show at 755 feet in the middle. They must have raised the land up to reduce their flooding risk

Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:54 pm
by Eon Blue
A lot of the rivers with stable levels are controlled by a lock and dam system. The upper Mississippi or the Ohio and its tributaries are domestic examples of this. In Europe, look to the Rhine or Danube. The upper Missouri has a series of dams, but these create large impoundments so it’s not quite the same.

Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:10 pm
by dukuboy1
I think there is opportunity for development in the river front area. Berkeley RF is drawing in other development. If it could develop further that would be a nice win to help create a continuous city/urban developed feel from the river South to the Plaza. That would be nice. I’m not searching for the utopia of development options but to acknowledge we have cone a long way with momentum & continue to build on it. It may not include what everyone wants but at least we are not seeing the answer to the questions be a silent nothing.

Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:37 am
by FangKC
This is a development along the riverfront in Cologne, Germany, that I find interesting. Something similar could be applied where the buildings could be built over the street and even the rail right-of-way and there would be no need to create a long covered tunnel. There could be smaller decks between the buildings which would allow pedestrian access to the river and some type of steps down the a riverwalk could be built.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:41 am
by normalthings
Port KC 5th Main is back on the table.

http://cityclerk.kcmo.org/LiveWeb/Docum ... y33%2bLDcp

Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:26 am
by Rabble
normalthings wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:41 am
Port KC 5th Main is back on the table.

http://cityclerk.kcmo.org/LiveWeb/Docum ... y33%2bLDcp
"main street on the east" Is it possible they will rip out the pedestrian alley and put back a real street like the city did with Walnut?

Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:57 pm
by normalthings
Rabble wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:26 am
normalthings wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:41 am
Port KC 5th Main is back on the table.

http://cityclerk.kcmo.org/LiveWeb/Docum ... y33%2bLDcp
"main street on the east" Is it possible they will rip out the pedestrian alley and put back a real street like the city did with Walnut?
It hasn’t been mentioned in any meetings. I doubt it will happen or that they have even thought that far yet

Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:18 pm
by Rabble
FangKC wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:37 am
This is a development along the riverfront in Cologne, Germany, that I find interesting. Something similar could be applied where the buildings could be built over the street and even the rail right-of-way and there would be no need to create a long covered tunnel.
I was just suggesting a two block long bridge/tunnel between Main and Grand, the area where the train tracks veer away the riverfront. I believe the south loop cap proposal would be four blocks.

Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:05 pm
by normalthings
Ashland pre-demo filed

Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:55 pm
by horizons82
https://www.kmbc.com/article/questions- ... m/33005171

David Hawley and his dull museum are back to openly pontificate on if they should leave KC. I feel like he does this every 9-12 months?

Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:11 pm
by normalthings
horizons82 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:55 pm
https://www.kmbc.com/article/questions- ... m/33005171

David Hawley and his dull museum are back to openly pontificate on if they should leave KC. I feel like he does this every 9-12 months?
No mention of Arrow whatever this time. We made the short list!

Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:00 am
by TheLastGentleman
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