Status and future of the River Market area??

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
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TheLastGentleman
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by TheLastGentleman »

normalthings wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:42 pm
Eminent domain can only be used for projects with public use or purpose. The legal and political battle to use that approach is going to be worse than just building a new garage (you might loose the case too). I think many in KC would argue that parking is a public good anyways.


It is much harder to use eminent domain now in part due to the urban renewal projects that you mention. But it doesn’t say you can’t give it to a private party at any time.
Since the City Market complex is owned by the city itself, couldn't it be argued that the development of its immediate surroundings would be a public good?

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:54 pm
normalthings wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:42 pm
Eminent domain can only be used for projects with public use or purpose. The legal and political battle to use that approach is going to be worse than just building a new garage (you might loose the case too). I think many in KC would argue that parking is a public good anyways.


It is much harder to use eminent domain now in part due to the urban renewal projects that you mention. But it doesn’t say you can’t give it to a private party at any time.
Since the City Market complex is owned by the city itself, couldn't it be argued that the development of its immediate surroundings would be a public good?
Yes, but it will not look good to the average viewer. Same issue with Hotel Bravo. Maybe it works on paper but publicly not popular and would be tone deaf.

How does this project benefit anyone on the city council? What reason do they have to support it?

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

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normalthings wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:56 pm


Yes, but it will not look good to the average viewer. Same issue with Hotel Bravo. Maybe it works on paper but publicly not popular and would be tone deaf.

How does this project benefit anyone on the city council? What reason do they have to support it?
It would justify the loop the streetcar makes around the City Market by putting buildings right on the line instead of surface lots. I'd think people would generally like to see buildings on their river market streetcar ride rather than parking lots. Maybe KC is just that backwards, but I somehow doubt it.

It would also generally enhance the city-owned City Market itself. It's a public amenity in the densest part of the old town. Seems like the city would want it to have the best context it can. A lot of other cities would kill to have a neighborhood like it.

If eminent domain is too much, are there less dramatic strategies that could be used to expedite the process?

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normalthings
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:21 pm
normalthings wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:56 pm


Yes, but it will not look good to the average viewer. Same issue with Hotel Bravo. Maybe it works on paper but publicly not popular and would be tone deaf.

How does this project benefit anyone on the city council? What reason do they have to support it?
If eminent domain is too much, are there less dramatic strategies that could be used to expedite the process?
City builds big fancy garage

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by Riverite »

What about taking a lot building a six seven story fancy garage wrapped by affordable houses built by the city to make it more palatable

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:21 pm
normalthings wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:56 pm


Yes, but it will not look good to the average viewer. Same issue with Hotel Bravo. Maybe it works on paper but publicly not popular and would be tone deaf.

How does this project benefit anyone on the city council? What reason do they have to support it?
It would justify the loop the streetcar makes around the City Market by putting buildings right on the line instead of surface lots. I'd think people would generally like to see buildings on their river market streetcar ride rather than parking lots. Maybe KC is just that backwards, but I somehow doubt it.

It would also generally enhance the city-owned City Market itself. It's a public amenity in the densest part of the old town. Seems like the city would want it to have the best context it can. A lot of other cities would kill to have a neighborhood like it.

If eminent domain is too much, are there less dramatic strategies that could be used to expedite the process?
I mean you essentially please like 5 people (the guy who gets to build a new building and 4 random urbanists). The average person won’t actually care. But you will piss off a ton of people (the people you take the land from, their friends, anyone against “downtown getting free money” and gov taking land). So as a political leader there is almost no upside to using eminent domain to take a parking lot for an apartment building or whatever. You gain really no additional votes but do gain a ton of enemies.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by Rabble »

Riverite wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:29 pm
What about taking a lot building a six seven story fancy garage wrapped by affordable houses built by the city to make it more palatable
wonderful idea

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

Rabble wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:30 am
Riverite wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:29 pm
What about taking a lot building a six seven story fancy garage wrapped by affordable houses built by the city to make it more palatable
wonderful idea
Build up a parking garage in the gulley to the east of the Town of Kansas walking bridge would be a great place to put parking. It looks flat enough for a surface lot and would be a great place to put a garage toped with used eventually.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by flyingember »

normalthings wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:53 pm
Rabble wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:30 am
Riverite wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 4:29 pm
What about taking a lot building a six seven story fancy garage wrapped by affordable houses built by the city to make it more palatable
wonderful idea
Build up a parking garage in the gulley to the east of the Town of Kansas walking bridge would be a great place to put parking. It looks flat enough for a surface lot and would be a great place to put a garage toped with used eventually.
Flat? It’s literally where the bluff drops off

South to north it’s a power substation, a historic site and then is railroad owned.

It’s one of the worst spots to build on in downtown

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

flyingember wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:59 pm
normalthings wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:53 pm
Rabble wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:30 am


wonderful idea
Build up a parking garage in the gulley to the east of the Town of Kansas walking bridge would be a great place to put parking. It looks flat enough for a surface lot and would be a great place to put a garage toped with used eventually.
Flat? It’s literally where the bluff drops off

South to north it’s a power substation, a historic site and then is railroad owned.

It’s one of the worst spots to build on in downtown
This area used to have roads + rails. It is graded and car has access to Grand street. If it is considered a historic site, that makes some sense. But nothing original appears to remain so what is there to preserve?
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by flyingember »

Go use the parcel viewer and turn on the railroad row options under platting

railroad access is extremely difficult to undo, and since there's there's access road running through your square good luck, it's probably best used as park land for the next 100 years.

I once opened a ticket a crossroads alley with construction debris in it and the city wouldn't do anything because the railroads were involved

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by FangKC »

Wasn't there talk of possibly putting a regional commuter rail stop in the River Market? If that ever gets approved and funded, wouldn't that area be the likely place for the passenger station?

DaveKCMO?

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

FangKC wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:37 pm
Wasn't there talk of possibly putting a regional commuter rail stop in the River Market? If that ever gets approved and funded, wouldn't that area be the likely place for the passenger station?

DaveKCMO?
The commuter rail location was going to be directly south of the power plant next to the streetcar non-rev line. I do not think this location will be possible now that the streetcar yard is being expanded.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by flyingember »

There's no plan to approve because there's no plan that can be approved. Only the trail made it past "what about..." There's no "going to be" for a station because they had no railroad willing to cooperate and without an idea of what track could be used there was no way to look at station placement.

The commuter rail system downtown was best described as a concept for what a station could look like.

It wasn't even a given the system wouldn't terminate at the stadiums and need to switch to street running at ~31st

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

flyingember wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:46 am
There's no plan to approve because there's no plan that can be approved. Only the trail made it past "what about..." There's no "going to be" for a station because they had no railroad willing to cooperate and without an idea of what track could be used there was no way to look at station placement.

The commuter rail system downtown was best described as a concept for what a station could look like.

It wasn't even a given the system wouldn't terminate at the stadiums and need to switch to street running at ~31st
Iirc Maybe 2-3 years ago? An engineering/conceptual drawing of 2nd Grand was floated on Twitter. The drawing showed commuter rail line into RM, station, and adjacent streetcar tracks (maintenance and those to the riverfront).

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by DaveKCMO »

FangKC wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:37 pm
Wasn't there talk of possibly putting a regional commuter rail stop in the River Market? If that ever gets approved and funded, wouldn't that area be the likely place for the passenger station?

DaveKCMO?
There was. Best location instead would be either Union $tation or Riverfront. Literally no one is trying to advance commuter rail right now.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

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normalthings wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:53 pm

Build up a parking garage in the gulley to the east of the Town of Kansas walking bridge would be a great place to put parking. It looks flat enough for a surface lot and would be a great place to put a garage toped with used eventually.
You could build a multi-story garage at the base of the river bluff, which cars could enter via a new road along the bottom of the bluff connected to Grand. Elevators would be on both south corners that could take people up to either the foot of Main or Walnut. This parking garage would have a park on top that overlooks the river.

While we're at it, we might as well build a two block long bridge over the railroad tracks, extending from Main to Grand, that would make a direct connection between the River Market and the river. This in effect would be a railroad tunnel with parkland on top and would be similar to the south loop cap proposal.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by Riverite »

Regional commuter rail would be amazing at union station!

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

Permits related to service disconnect and demolition for Ashland Project have been filed. Excavation/gas turn off was approved last week.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

Riverite wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:13 pm
Regional commuter rail would be amazing at union station!
CR polled highly but died when Sanders went to jail. There is no one working on it now.

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