Status and future of the River Market area??

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
macnw
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by macnw »

Same kind of bridge here in Portland, and seems to work fine for bikes/pedestrians and streetcars.

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normalthings
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

Rabble wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:25 pm
Does anybody know if the ASB Bridge has ever been considered an option for extending the street car across the Missouri? When the bridge was new the inter-urban to St. Joe ran down the center of the upper road deck.

I'm posting this question here, because while wondering around the River Market lately, I've become aware of what a great looking bridge it is. What makes it look awkward is the road deck was removed 35 years ago along with the approaches on both sides of the river. It seems like this could be a less expensive way for the streetcar to cross the river, and at the same time increase the beauty of this iconic bridge.

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I think I asked this before here and the answer was: bridge ownership is entirely with the railroad now. Railroad has zero incentive to allow anything to be built on top again. Aside from that, there would be a lot of cost and complexity in building anything on and connecting to it. HOA is cheaper iirc. With HOA all of the structure is in place, you just need to remove a little bit of the deck and add rails.

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TheLastGentleman
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by TheLastGentleman »

https://kcstreetcar.org/wp-content/uplo ... ly2014.pdf

This document from back in 2014 says that the ASB option was considered and immediately shot down by the railroad refusing to consider it. However, that was 6 years ago, and it sounds like the idea was given up pretty quickly. Maybe with a stronger proposal and the popularity of the streetcar this idea could come back? Railroads are heartless, but are they that heartless? Would there be a way to sweeten the deal without completely abandoning our ethics?
The Armour-Swift-Burlington (ASB) Bridge formerly carried a trolley line connection between North Kansas City and Kansas City, Missouri. The trolley line connection was eventually changed to accommodate vehicles. When the Heart of America Bridge opened in 1987, the
vehicular deck on the ASB was closed and the approach structures to the upper deck were removed. The bridge is now owned by the BNSF Railway and is used exclusively for freight rail traffic on the lower deck. The ASB Bridge is not available to re-establish a streetcar line on the upper deck and it was eliminated from detailed analysis.

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TheLastGentleman
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by TheLastGentleman »

macnw wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:56 pm
Same kind of bridge here in Portland, and seems to work fine for bikes/pedestrians and streetcars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_Bridge
The Steel Bridge is a through truss, double-deck vertical-lift bridge across the Willamette River in Portland, Oregon, United States, opened in 1912. Its lower deck carries railroad and bicycle/pedestrian traffic, while the upper deck carries road traffic (on the Pacific Highway West No. 1W, former Oregon Route 99W), and light rail (MAX), making the bridge one of the most multimodal in the world. It is the only double-deck bridge with independent lifts in the world[1] and the second oldest vertical-lift bridge in North America, after the nearby Hawthorne Bridge. The bridge links the Rose Quarter and Lloyd District in the east to Old Town Chinatown neighborhood in the west.
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by flyingember »

It would be dramatically more expensive too.

The HOA bridge has the structure in place to within three blocks of the line

The ASB requires building the entire approach at both ends. There’s 9 blocks missing on the north end and 4 blocks on the south end. The new structure would be equal to going from Pershing to 37th and it wouldn’t be any faster to cross than the HOA Bridge

Incidentally, the trains ran down the middle and the track was on the lift structure. The outer deck was designed for the much lighter cars of the era

And taking the HOA takes track to Columbus Park, so a new stop could be placed under the bridge to serve the neighborhood

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by Rabble »

flyingember wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:36 pm
It would be dramatically more expensive too.

The HOA bridge has the structure in place to within three blocks of the line

The ASB requires building the entire approach at both ends. There’s 9 blocks missing on the north end and 4 blocks on the south end. The new structure would be equal to going from Pershing to 37th and it wouldn’t be any faster to cross than the HOA Bridge

Incidentally, the trains ran down the middle and the track was on the lift structure. The outer deck was designed for the much lighter cars of the era

And taking the HOA takes track to Columbus Park, so a new stop could be placed under the bridge to serve the neighborhood
Granted, the HOA would be dramatically cheaper. But if KC runs it's streetcar over the Missouri river on a steel-girder highway bridge from the 1980's, when a historic underutilized double-decker vertical-lift bridge was available next door, KC will look cheap, unimaginative and second rate. Why did this city build the Sprint center when Kemper was fine? Because great cities figure out how to do great things.

Bring back the outer decks for pedestrians and bikes.

And I thought the plan was to remove the downtown approach to the HOA and build a new one starting at third. If this gets done it will reunite Columbus Park and the City Market as a singular neighborhood.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by horizons82 »

Disagree that ASB reconstruction is some grand move any great city would make. Great cities know how to maximize their finite dollars.

If bringing 9 down to grade & a HOA streetcar spur can be done for the same or lower cost as all that ASB retrofit, that’s clearly a better project. Even if it were higher cost, HOA/9 would be a better deal given the value capture of all that freed up land.

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normalthings
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

Aren’t ASB and Broadway the same age? Designed in similar manners? I would think ASB can’t be that far behind in needing a replacement then.

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TheLastGentleman
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by TheLastGentleman »

normalthings wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:49 pm
Aren’t ASB and Broadway the same age? Designed in similar manners? I would think ASB can’t be that far behind in needing a replacement then.
ASB was completed in 1911, Broadway was completed in 1956.

However, I don't think that means ASB will be replaced anytime soon. Old bridges in KC seem to have longer lifespans than the ones built in the 50s and 60s. For instance, the Paseo Bridge only lasted 56 years, the Lewis and Clark Viaduct lasted only 56 years, and the Broadway, if demolished in the next 5 years, will have only lasted 69 years at most.

In contrast, the Intercity Viaduct has lasted 113 years, the Hannibal Bridge has lasted 103 years, and the ASB has lasted 109. From what I understand, many of the old bridges across the Kansas River by the West Bottoms are from this period as well.

Were midcentury bridges just built very cheaply?

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normalthings
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:34 pm
macnw wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:56 pm
Same kind of bridge here in Portland, and seems to work fine for bikes/pedestrians and streetcars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_Bridge
The Steel Bridge is a through truss, double-deck vertical-lift bridge across the Willamette River in Portland, Oregon, United States, opened in 1912. Its lower deck carries railroad and bicycle/pedestrian traffic, while the upper deck carries road traffic (on the Pacific Highway West No. 1W, former Oregon Route 99W), and light rail (MAX), making the bridge one of the most multimodal in the world. It is the only double-deck bridge with independent lifts in the world[1] and the second oldest vertical-lift bridge in North America, after the nearby Hawthorne Bridge. The bridge links the Rose Quarter and Lloyd District in the east to Old Town Chinatown neighborhood in the west.
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You forgot a critical piece of information: "The span (bridge) was closed to all traffic for two years, starting in June 1984. It reopened on May 31, 1986."

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TheLastGentleman
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by TheLastGentleman »

normalthings wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:54 pm
You forgot a critical piece of information: "The span (bridge) was closed to all traffic for two years, starting in June 1984. It reopened on May 31, 1986."
Both of the levels of the Portland Steel Bridge can be raised, making it a more technically complicated bridge, likely explaining why it had to be totally shut down. In contrast, the top level of the ASB Bridge is unbroken. When there was a road on it, traffic could continue even if the lower level was raised.

Honestly, the ASB is probably even more suited to traffic on its upper deck than the Portland Steel Bridge was for that reason.

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Chris Stritzel
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by Chris Stritzel »

Found on Loopnet. The parcel at 254 West 3rd Street is for sale. There's a rendering for a skinny, 42-unit apartment building on that site. The site is only 5,804SF. The building looks good to me and would be a nice addition to the area if someone buys the property and builds it.

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Listing PDF: https://images1.loopnet.com/d2/E9pZDr_9 ... cument.pdf

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TheLastGentleman
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by TheLastGentleman »

One of the few remaining parcels available for development in the River Market.
I don't think that's quite accurate. Nice little building though. I'd love to see more like it throughout the rest of the neighborhood

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by Chris Stritzel »

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:50 pm
One of the few remaining parcels available for development in the River Market.
I don't think that's quite accurate. Nice little building though. I'd love to see more like it throughout the rest of the neighborhood
Not for the entire area, but it seems that it's one of the last in the area to the Northwest of 5th and Wyandotte.

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normalthings
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

Chris Stritzel wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:44 pm
Found on Loopnet. The parcel at 254 West 3rd Street is for sale. There's a rendering for a skinny, 42-unit apartment building on that site. The site is only 5,804SF. The building looks good to me and would be a nice addition to the area if someone buys the property and builds it.

Image

Listing PDF: https://images1.loopnet.com/d2/E9pZDr_9 ... cument.pdf
That is Arnold Development property

horizons82
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by horizons82 »

I'm suspicious that this is anything more than a vaporware rendering for the seller; not a plug & play development plan. A glance at the zoning map still shows this as still manufacturing. A zoning change isn't a big hurdle for any buyer but does indicate a lack of seriousness on the part of the current landowner.

Any residential-only project in the area is going to be subject to parking requirements (about 1 block too far from streetcar area). That's the biggest issue.

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normalthings
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

horizons82 wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:19 pm
I'm suspicious that this is anything more than a vaporware rendering for the seller; not a plug & play development plan. A glance at the zoning map still shows this as still manufacturing. A zoning change isn't a big hurdle for any buyer but does indicate a lack of seriousness on the part of the current landowner.

Any residential-only project in the area is going to be subject to parking requirements (about 1 block too far from streetcar area). That's the biggest issue.
As proposed it is doable for Arnold. Doesn’t make much sense for anyone else besides RM West or Market Station to pick up.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by Riverite »

Could use a restaurant or bodega. Get that side of the river market moving besides just residential

kenrbnj
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by kenrbnj »

normalthings wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:24 pm
horizons82 wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:19 pm
I'm suspicious that this is anything more than a vaporware rendering for the seller; not a plug & play development plan. A glance at the zoning map still shows this as still manufacturing. A zoning change isn't a big hurdle for any buyer but does indicate a lack of seriousness on the part of the current landowner.

Any residential-only project in the area is going to be subject to parking requirements (about 1 block too far from streetcar area). That's the biggest issue.
As proposed it is doable for Arnold. Doesn’t make much sense for anyone else besides RM West or Market Station to pick up.
Interesting remark.

There is a class of developer whose business model is exactly what Horizons82 had suggested (though it tends to be more pervasive on the coasts):

1. Acquire land or better yet, RIGHTS to the land
2. Acquire the demolition permits to clear the existing structures, as needed
3. Acquire the permits and variances on that land
4. Secure any gimmicks such as tax abatement/TIF incentives on the property.
5. Bundle the rights, the permits, the variances and sell them as a package to the next "actual" developer.


Such developers are usually "broke-dick": Under capitalized.

In theory, one could make a piece of property with a derelict property more valuable by acquiring permits, then packaging the shooting-match for a "Flip".

Very aggravating. Cities throughout the country should "bind" zoning/variances/incentives to a given project with a given developer.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by earthling »

^^Like skinny buildings for residential infill but otherwise could use corner coffee shop/cafe setup and rounded corner or bay windows would give it a nice touch.

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