Status and future of the River Market area??

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by flyingember »

shinatoo wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 11:07 pm
I like to see the Venn diagram of people who go to casinos and people who would be willing to walk that far.
The workers. Some of them will live downtown, there's the cluster of affordable homes on the westside

If the streetcar runs later than bus 77 it becomes a reasonable way to get home

people walk across the HOA bridge to get to work and that's far longer

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by dukuboy1 »

I know where Harlem is, and it's still pretty much "low rent", industrial. Plus I'm not sure if it is part of NKC or not or where the lines are. I will however say there could be an opportunity for NKC to look at improving the West side of Burlington. Mostly Industrial buildings. warehouses and railroads over there. However they tore down an old grain elevator and there is a huge tract of vacant land. There may be other uses for some of the warehouses and such back there going all the way down to the river. But the roads are very rough, they know its mostly trucks and fork lifts driving around back there. Every road crosses a railroad track, which makes them unusable as an East/West connector. If they wanted to get innovative, use some of the casino revenue they get and make improvements to the access. If they could create a way over, or under, that would allow for free flowing traffic that would be great, especially for commuters on the Broadway extension if there is ever an accident or stalled car. There is no where to route once you commit to the bridge. You can try Harlem but 99% chance you will be stuck by a train. So until something like that happens, and it is not likely at all, Harlem will be what it is, kind of sketchy with no real opportunities.

Also on the train subject. The East Bottoms will never really be able to really get rolling until a solution for the train tracks are found. It cuts the area in 2. You can come in via 2nd or 3rd street and get over to the Reiger. But if you want to get to knuckle heads from there better hope there is no train. From the North approach from Front Street, you run into train issues around Cargil and such, especially if you are coming in from the Riverfront area. I'd love to see the East Bottoms thrive even more than they are but again got to figure out better access

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by FangKC »

kenrbnj wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 10:55 am
I should mention: Harlem -- the strip of land on the North Bank of the Missouri River -- is beginning to look like an undiscovered jewel.

If I remember correctly; there were a few light industrial zones and a few ratty old hotels which had been converted into the efficiency apartments.

Has anyone heard of anything regarding this little recognized zone?
Please explain how this is an "undiscovered jewel?" What do you conceive happening here?

It sits behind a levee that could fail in a catastrophic flood event. It's surrounded by railroads with trains moving all the time and screeching metal on metal noise, and diesel locomotive emissions. It's got limited accessibility, and sits close to a starch plant that emits awful smells regularly.
dukuboy1 wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:47 pm
I know where Harlem is, and it's still pretty much "low rent", industrial. Plus I'm not sure if it is part of NKC or not or where the lines are.
Harlem is part of Kansas City, Missouri.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

Does anyone know if the 3rd and Walnut garage is actually used?

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by kenrbnj »

FangKC wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 9:32 pm
kenrbnj wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 10:55 am
I should mention: Harlem -- the strip of land on the North Bank of the Missouri River -- is beginning to look like an undiscovered jewel.

If I remember correctly; there were a few light industrial zones and a few ratty old hotels which had been converted into the efficiency apartments.

Has anyone heard of anything regarding this little recognized zone?
Please explain how this is an "undiscovered jewel?" What do you conceive happening here?

It sits behind a levee that could fail in a catastrophic flood event. It's surrounded by railroads with trains moving all the time and screeching metal on metal noise, and diesel locomotive emissions. It's got limited accessibility, and sits close to a starch plant that emits awful smells regularly.
dukuboy1 wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:47 pm


I know where Harlem is, and it's still pretty much "low rent", industrial. Plus I'm not sure if it is part of NKC or not or where the lines are.
Harlem is part of Kansas City, Missouri.

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Harlem, along the waterfront is no different in challenges than one confronts in either Berkeley Riverfront or in the West Bottoms. It has a tremendous view of the city and reasonable access to both NKC and to downtown.

The area I refer to is on the eastern extents of the district.

Midrise buildings with parking on the ground level would be treated to a unique perspective of the downtown.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by Riverite »

Also a second river front park if they can add a pedestrian bridge to north KC would help it be used and compliment berkeley

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by shinatoo »

Riverite wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 7:49 am
Also a second river front park if they can add a pedestrian bridge to north KC would help it be used and compliment berkeley
I always liked Harlem as a stadium site if there were pedestrian bridges to river market. Orientation for downtown view with baseball would be difficult.
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by TheLastGentleman »

normalthings wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 12:15 am
Does anyone know if the 3rd and Walnut garage is actually used?
It is indeed used. Saw cars in it today

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by TheLastGentleman »

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by Rabble »

This whole notion that nothing can be developed around the immediate core of the City Market because of parking leases strikes me as absurd. Being told that surface parking lots will be located along the streetcar line for the next 100 years sounds small town and defeatist.

The River Market is so much more than just a neighborhood. This area cannot be thought of on the same level as Waldo, Brookside, Midtown or the Crossroads. The River Market is made up of the oldest streets of the original city. What a joy to see Walnut returned to its original form the same way Second Street returned to us about 10 years ago. These are the ancient roads laid by our founders, carved out of mud. These roads were full of commerce, people, romance and danger when downtown and everything south was wilderness.

But the River Market is not the River Qui, Olde Towne or any other touristy label. These are real buildings, businesses and people that are on the Missouri River, the reason for this city’s existence. This is the part of town that surrounds the City Market, one of, if not the crown jewel of our city. How is it that this great facility, with a new streetcar surrounding it, cannot get one single new building across the street in any direction?

All great cities are built on either rivers or oceans. But the really great cities also take advantage of this proximity with parks and promenades both along the water and overlooking the water. Another absurdity to me is that River Market Park has no view of the river 3 blocks away. This existing park should be developed with buildings and Main and Fourth brought back as streets. A new park should be built at the foot of Main on both the high ground and the land below the overlook bridge. Berkley Park alone cannot be the sole river park of this city.

The River Market is not a neighborhood but instead the market area for the entire region. No matter where you live in this city we should all understand the importance of this asset. City Hall needs to help by building parking garages at key locations for the visitors but also subsidize smaller mid-block garages for the locals, so that the many surface lots can be developed.

If you have never been to Seattle, google Pikes Market to see how a city can engulf a wonderful market area. Kansas City could have this, but only if it treats it as seriously as it treated bringing back Union Station. And before the city helps build any new attractions such as a downtown ballpark, it needs to enhance and polish one of the greatest attractions any city could ask for.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

Rabble wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 11:01 am
This whole notion that nothing can be developed around the immediate core of the City Market because of parking leases strikes me as absurd. Being told that surface parking lots will be located along the streetcar line for the next 100 years sounds small town and defeatist.

The River Market is so much more than just a neighborhood. This area cannot be thought of on the same level as Waldo, Brookside, Midtown or the Crossroads. The River Market is made up of the oldest streets of the original city. What a joy to see Walnut returned to its original form the same way Second Street returned to us about 10 years ago. These are the ancient roads laid by our founders, carved out of mud. These roads were full of commerce, people, romance and danger when downtown and everything south was wilderness.

But the River Market is not the River Qui, Olde Towne or any other touristy label. These are real buildings, businesses and people that are on the Missouri River, the reason for this city’s existence. This is the part of town that surrounds the City Market, one of, if not the crown jewel of our city. How is it that this great facility, with a new streetcar surrounding it, cannot get one single new building across the street in any direction?

All great cities are built on either rivers or oceans. But the really great cities also take advantage of this proximity with parks and promenades both along the water and overlooking the water. Another absurdity to me is that River Market Park has no view of the river 3 blocks away. This existing park should be developed with buildings and Main and Fourth brought back as streets. A new park should be built at the foot of Main on both the high ground and the land below the overlook bridge. Berkley Park alone cannot be the sole river park of this city.

The River Market is not a neighborhood but instead the market area for the entire region. No matter where you live in this city we should all understand the importance of this asset. City Hall needs to help by building parking garages at key locations for the visitors but also subsidize smaller mid-block garages for the locals, so that the many surface lots can be developed.

If you have never been to Seattle, google Pikes Market to see how a city can engulf a wonderful market area. Kansas City could have this, but only if it treats it as seriously as it treated bringing back Union Station. And before the city helps build any new attractions such as a downtown ballpark, it needs to enhance and polish one of the greatest attractions any city could ask for.
1. RM Parking: Developers and owners can not just walk out of other people's agreements. The parking issues can be fixed by either waiting or spending. We are not at the point where land values and demand make spending an option. At least without city involvement. Even then, many urbanists here do not want to see the city building or incentivizing garages.

2. RM Park: The river market gets pretty packed during market days with no room to really sit and rest or eat. The park provides a space for people to sit and eat at. The park's central location provides a constant stream of eyes making it feel safer and reducing crime vs. having something far off in a corner.
The parking lots should go but the park provides a useful service that adds to the market. The main street bridge has a great view that is enjoyed by many already. The low grounds along main have no parcel on Maps.KCMO. The high grounds are mostly electrical equipment for KCPL. You could move those east but then there goes one of your city garage locations.

3. Agree on your last point on incremental changes and polishing RM. It is Strongtowns esque. I think a potential solution is building outside in. There is space around the periphery for developments to include oversized garages that free up spaces closer in. 2nd Deleware, for example, has a high parking ratio that maybe could be used to unlock another lot closer in.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by TheLastGentleman »

I’d take the construction of sizable garages on the fringes of the neighborhood over the continued presence of surface lots along the streetcar line. The streetcar shouldn’t be having this much trouble spurring development. Something has gone wrong.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 2:01 pm
I’d take the construction of sizable garages on the fringes of the neighborhood over the continued presence of surface lots along the streetcar line. The streetcar shouldn’t be having this much trouble spurring development. Something has gone wrong.
The streetcar has spurred tremendous development within the Rivermarket area.
Last edited by normalthings on Sun May 31, 2020 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by TheLastGentleman »

The Ashland will be the first new construction north of the crossroads on the streetcar line since it opened almost 4 years ago

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 2:25 pm
The Ashland will be the first new construction north of the crossroads on the streetcar line since it opened almost 4 years ago
We have seen sizable development spurred by the streetcar along, near, and even somewhat distant from the line itself. I don't think that not physically touching the tracks should discount a project. By that measure, WR, Loews, One Light, Two Light, Reverb, Corrigan Station, Savoy, Tracks 215, Arterra, Artistry, and many others "don't count." Yet we know the decision to build them and the economic market to support them stems in part from having the streetcar.

RM has seen 2 Delaware, RM West, RM West 2, 531 Grand, and Centropolis constructed. Ashland close to starting. 3rd Delaware, 5th Main, & 3rd Grand in the pipeline for the next year with a few others coming.

As has been said previously, the central RM lots are generally the most tied up (for various reasons) so of course, you will see development occur nearby at easier parcels first. Outside of RM, most of the empty lots along the line are owned by a small collection of individuals. A few have been tied up as parking for the redevelopment of nearby buildings and so suffer from similar issues. There are also proposals with good people behind them who sometimes lack the scale and money to get things going quickly.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by Rabble »

normalthings wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 12:25 pm
1. RM Parking: Developers and owners can not just walk out of other people's agreements. The parking issues can be fixed by either waiting or spending. We are not at the point where land values and demand make spending an option. At least without city involvement. Even then, many urbanists here do not want to see the city building or incentivizing garages.
I'm talking about smallish parking structures' 4 or 5 stories tall, located toward the center or middle of the block, leaving the corners lots available for retail on ground floors and apts/offices above. These spaces would be used by both those loosing their spaces due to new construction as well as the new tenants. The city should be financing these new garages to help improve a city asset. For you anti-garage urbanists, these garages could be designed to be converted to offices or apartments when the demand for parking spaces decrease.
normalthings wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 12:25 pm
2. RM Park: The river market gets pretty packed during market days with no room to really sit and rest or eat. The park provides a space for people to sit and eat at. The park's central location provides a constant stream of eyes making it feel safer and reducing crime vs. having something far off in a corner.
The parking lots should go but the park provides a useful service that adds to the market. The main street bridge has a great view that is enjoyed by many already. The low grounds along main have no parcel on Maps.KCMO. The high grounds are mostly electrical equipment for KCPL. You could move those east but then there goes one of your city garage locations.
Google Victor Steinbrueck Park in Seattle. Its a lovely park with great views of Elliott Bay and its sits on parking garage nearby Pikes Market. Big cities figure out how to get power equipment moved off of valuable real estate.

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normalthings wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 12:25 pm
3. Agree on your last point on incremental changes and polishing RM. It is Strongtowns esque. I think a potential solution is building outside in. There is space around the periphery for developments to include oversized garages that free up spaces closer in. 2nd Deleware, for example, has a high parking ratio that maybe could be used to unlock another lot closer in.
Wouldn't it be great if the people parking in the lot on the southeast corner of 2nd and Delaware could move their spaces into the new garage, so that new construction could take place on that surface lot. 2nd and Delaware would become one of the great urban intersections in the city.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by Rabble »

1. RM Parking: Developers and owners can not just walk out of other people's agreements. The parking issues can be fixed by either waiting or spending. We are not at the point where land values and demand make spending an option. At least without city involvement. Even then, many urbanists here do not want to see the city building or incentivizing garages.
Why can't the city use eminent domain and just pay off these people for their parking spaces? By it's mass destruction this program created many of these surface lots in the last century, so wouldn't it be nice to see the program used today to free up surface lots for new development?

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

Rabble wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:17 pm
1. RM Parking: Developers and owners can not just walk out of other people's agreements. The parking issues can be fixed by either waiting or spending. We are not at the point where land values and demand make spending an option. At least without city involvement. Even then, many urbanists here do not want to see the city building or incentivizing garages.
Why can't the city use eminent domain and just pay off these people for their parking spaces? By it's mass destruction this program created many of these surface lots in the last century, so wouldn't it be nice to see the program used today to free up surface lots for new development?
I don’t think you can use eminent domain for private projects in that manner.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by TheLastGentleman »

normalthings wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:46 pm
I don’t think you can use eminent domain for private projects in that manner.
A lot of the land cleared during urban renewal has ended up in private hands though.

Was any eminent domain used for the Power and Light District or Sprint Center?

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:00 pm
normalthings wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:46 pm
I don’t think you can use eminent domain for private projects in that manner.
A lot of the land cleared during urban renewal has ended up in private hands though.

Was any eminent domain used for the Power and Light District or Sprint Center?
Eminent domain can only be used for projects with public use or purpose. The legal and political battle to use that approach is going to be worse than just building a new garage (you might loose the case too). I think many in KC would argue that parking is a public good anyways. “City wants to take much needed parking and give it to a developer for luxury apartments for the rich”


It is much harder to use eminent domain now in part due to the urban renewal projects that you mention. But it doesn’t say you can’t give it to a private party at any time.

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