Status and future of the River Market area??

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
WoodDraw
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by WoodDraw »

Or just tax the fuck out of surface lots so developers stop sitting on them.

There is plenty of excess garage parking downtown that can be used. We have to get rid of this idea that every place needs it's own dedicated place. We are all friendly people, we can share.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by flyingember »

WoodDraw wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 4:59 pm
Or just tax the fuck out of surface lots so developers stop sitting on them.

There is plenty of excess garage parking downtown that can be used. We have to get rid of this idea that every place needs it's own dedicated place. We are all friendly people, we can share.
Most lots share a parcel with a building, Property taxes apply from the county at the parcel level based on the use of the property (ex. Commercial, residential) so the only way to tax many lots more is to rethink our tax code coming out of the state legislature. The streetcar assessment works within this system.

The TDD has an extra assessment on PAY for parking spots but that’s based on a type of commerce, not the property type.

There’s not all spots immediately open for everyone if a lot disappears. Legal contracts obliging lot and garage owners to dedicate spaces will just increase costs to lease available spaces. Now suddenly keeping surface lots becomes economically viable as the profit rate is increased. No cost to build a garage. Increased rates possible. The TDD assessment doesn’t increase when their value did.

The only way to reduce parking demand isn’t to raise taxes, it’s to change zoning to disallow adding parking with new projects with parking maximums. People will talk with their money if it’s easier to walk to work than park a block over at twice today’s cost.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by WoodDraw »

flyingember wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 10:04 pm
WoodDraw wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 4:59 pm
Or just tax the fuck out of surface lots so developers stop sitting on them.

There is plenty of excess garage parking downtown that can be used. We have to get rid of this idea that every place needs it's own dedicated place. We are all friendly people, we can share.
Most lots share a parcel with a building, Property taxes apply from the county at the parcel level based on the use of the property (ex. Commercial, residential) so the only way to tax many lots more is to rethink our tax code coming out of the state legislature. The streetcar assessment works within this system.

The TDD has an extra assessment on PAY for parking spots but that’s based on a type of commerce, not the property type.

There’s not all spots immediately open for everyone if a lot disappears. Legal contracts obliging lot and garage owners to dedicate spaces will just increase costs to lease available spaces. Now suddenly keeping surface lots becomes economically viable as the profit rate is increased. No cost to build a garage. Increased rates possible. The TDD assessment doesn’t increase when their value did.

The only way to reduce parking demand isn’t to raise taxes, it’s to change zoning to disallow adding parking with new projects with parking maximums. People will talk with their money if it’s easier to walk to work than park a block over at twice today’s cost.
I know I was flippant. It would take an organized, sustained effort to fix with city and state backing. I still think it is worth doing.

The state is unlikely to help, but I believe there is more the city could do to incentivize land owners to stop banking property and garages to become multiuse.

But we can't even get them to stop companies from blocking sidewalks, so I won't hold my breath.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by flyingember »

How do you do all of that? What's the actual practical approach?

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by Rabble »

How did the Crossroads overcome these obstacles and build six new projects along the streetcar line while the loop and River market have built zero? I assume most of the new construction in the Crossroads replaced surface parking.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by Rabble »

I love the fact that I'm referred to by this blog as a parking garage. Someday I want to be an office tower!

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by ToDactivist »

hey as the owner of the largest surface lot in the central River Market ~3 acres - dont assume I am just "sitting on it" for my health. I am stuck/burdened but ancient BS agmts whereby I have to park 121 cars from neighboring appts in "any" space within the 300 car lot until 2050 and for free. Wow. So even if we infilled (desire) we have to build above/below garage at our sole cost - $35K/space x 121 = $4.2-5M plus of course spaces for our new residents (paid or not). Working thru this so bring more density (we all know how popular city subsidies on parking is) and not sensitive but if pointing at the most obvious infill, this is the story behind the story.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by WoodDraw »

That's fair pushback. Like I said, I know I was being flippant earlier and there are complex issues.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by Rabble »

It's depressing to know how much damage cars are still doing to our city. Is there any hope, that in a generation, the street car won't still be traveling through a bombed out neighborhood?

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by flyingember »

Downtown is still seeing an increase in total parking spots being added. With recent and planned projects, parking directly along the streetcar has gone up since it opened.

Now, imagine there's hundreds of lots downtown in the same situation as directly above, with long term agreements in place of one or another.

People talk about garage conversions and building on lots and forget that every business deal needs to expire to do that. It's why so many projects are about tear downs because when that's what's available on the market that's where projects are. An empty building reduces it's own parking encumbrances.

Crossroads projects along Main-
Two projects were tear outs which came with connected parking. They built larger garages than existed as surface lots
Two they elevated the building over the parking, the surface lot is still there.
One they hid the parking behind retail space, it's still there
One didn't replace parking with new parking yet across the street a building was torn down to make parking

flyingember
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by flyingember »

Rabble wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 2:22 pm
It's depressing to know how much damage cars are still doing to our city. Is there any hope, that in a generation, the street car won't still be traveling through a bombed out neighborhood?
Parking began being added in the 1920s.

You can expect it to take 100 years for there to be no parking lots along it.

There's a surface parking lot next to the Chicago El stop.

WoodDraw
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by WoodDraw »

That Chicago lot with the dunkndonuts or whatever is there now kills me every time I see it.

Listen, I know it's complex. What I should have said is that I wish we had more clear policies to start moving in the correct direction and leadership in the city that talked about it.

We're going to end up with so much excess parking downtown in a few years that maybe it's better for the lots to stay empty until we can fill them with something other than garages.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by KCPowercat »

ToDactivist wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 1:46 pm
hey as the owner of the largest surface lot in the central River Market ~3 acres - dont assume I am just "sitting on it" for my health. I am stuck/burdened but ancient BS agmts whereby I have to park 121 cars from neighboring appts in "any" space within the 300 car lot until 2050 and for free. Wow. So even if we infilled (desire) we have to build above/below garage at our sole cost - $35K/space x 121 = $4.2-5M plus of course spaces for our new residents (paid or not). Working thru this so bring more density (we all know how popular city subsidies on parking is) and not sensitive but if pointing at the most obvious infill, this is the story behind the story.
My last memory of this was the city council or someone was trying to help get a resolution to this insanity?

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by flyingember »

WoodDraw wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 2:52 pm
Listen, I know it's complex. What I should have said is that I wish we had more clear policies to start moving in the correct direction and leadership in the city that talked about it.
I think that's a great idea.
What would those policies look like?

WoodDraw wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 2:52 pm
We're going to end up with so much excess parking downtown in a few years that maybe it's better for the lots to stay empty until we can fill them with something other than garages.
And how do you work in an environment where this will never be the case? Where the demands of developers and banks + induced demand will result in spots filling instead.


So the core question seems to be how do we stop induced demand? We don't We work it from the customer demand side by inducing changing parking modes.

A great start would be to raise the cost of on street parking. This becomes easier as the city shifts to a kiosk per block, but if it costs $5 for the first hour, in a garage on street parking should be $1.25 per 15 minutes. Only disabled tags and registered delivery vehicles get to park for free but they must park in a legal spot.

Use the increased parking funds to pay for more enforcement.

We need parking enforcement to put in bike lanes, wider sidewalks and all that and have them be usable

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by dukuboy1 »

well the news that the street car line from river market into the river front is being reduced won't make this debate of parking any better. Leaves open Eastern expansion. They are doing it to obtain federal funding. I get it but it's too bad. Unless they are on the short list to get funding they may want to wait until after the election. Could be a better environment after NOV for funds. Plus I'm curious if the proposed short route will tick off the Isle of Capri and their plans. Not sure how far the tax district extends to support the street car

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by DaveKCMO »

dukuboy1 wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 4:17 pm
well the news that the street car line from river market into the river front is being reduced won't make this debate of parking any better. Leaves open Eastern expansion. They are doing it to obtain federal funding. I get it but it's too bad. Unless they are on the short list to get funding they may want to wait until after the election. Could be a better environment after NOV for funds. Plus I'm curious if the proposed short route will tick off the Isle of Capri and their plans. Not sure how far the tax district extends to support the street car
This solves the key mobility issue of the Grand viaduct. You can walk very easily (flat, paved) all the way to Isle of Capri.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by shinatoo »

I like to see the Venn diagram of people who go to casinos and people who would be willing to walk that far.
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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by normalthings »

shinatoo wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 11:07 pm
I like to see the Venn diagram of people who go to casinos and people who would be willing to walk that far.
It is my understanding that the group that visits Isle of Capri and downtowners are 2 non-overlapping circles.

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by KCPowercat »

If we ever got a good grand ped/bike access, isle of Capri could create an army of pedicabs to pick up customers at city market and take them to the casino. I honestly didn't know you could take the riverfront all the way there

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Re: Status and future of the River Market area??

Post by kenrbnj »

I should mention: Harlem -- the strip of land on the North Bank of the Missouri River -- is beginning to look like an undiscovered jewel.

If I remember correctly; there were a few light industrial zones and a few ratty old hotels which had been converted into the efficiency apartments.

Has anyone heard of anything regarding this little recognized zone?

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