Common thinking on this forum

Announcements about the forum as well as comments, questions, ideas for the forum or the website in general.
mean
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 11238
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 9:00 am
Location: Historic Northeast

Common thinking on this forum

Post by mean »

KCPowercat wrote:There has been like 3 years of study done by the sports commission that says it will be a success.

What specific arguments do you think people skimmed over and should pay closer attention to?
Don't you see how appealing to authority in this manner displays a complete lack of critical thinking? How many years of study were there before Kemper was built, for example? How many studies said Union Station and Jazz District would be moneymakers? Government studies mean next to nothing...or rather, they mean whatever the current administration wants you to believe, and this applies more or less across the board. We know that Union Station and Jazz District aren't making money, but we aren't asking why enough. We aren't looking to see who did profit from those ventures. And we certainly aren't applying our historical knowledge and experience to critically examine the arena's financing, because, well, we want an arena, dammit, so all opposition be damned! It is painfully obvious.

I have -- and you should have, as an intelligent, thinking, concerned citizen -- zero faith that they're going to do it right. The financing deal is pretty scary and they've given us nothing but failure for the last n decades. Hoping they won't this time is fine, but believing they won't because some study by a commission with a vested interest in seeing an arena built says they won't...that's like believing George Bush should be re-elected because Rush Limbaugh says so. Believing they won't because you don't want them to is foolish. Believing they won't because they have a good track record of honesty, integrity, and success might be the only situation where I wouldn't advocate extreme critical analysis. We don't have that track record.

My 'specific argument' I want you to pay attention to is only that I think the people here, particularly the admins/mods, should be more critical, that's all. I'd like to see an arena, albeit with different financing, but this is what we're getting and there's nothing we can really do about it now...fine. However, when the entire "staff" vehemently supports one viewpoint with zero criticism, and that viewpoint happens to be the city's viewpoint, it discourages critical thinking as well as critical discussion by dissenters. It creates a sort of groupthink where opposing ideas, no matter how logical or sensible, are disregarded and sometimes even ridiculed.

In other words, find things in the city's plans to criticize. Don't assume everything is good, de-emphasizing negatives and criticism. That is the OPPOSITE of what interested, concerned citizens should be doing. Analyze opposing arguments with an open mind, not a "they can't be right, they are jerks, they are the enemy" attitude (ala CAAT, Danaher, Enterprise). That's all I'm really asking. Begging, even. Cause I really liked coming here for discussions before everyone turned into hater jerks. :(
"It is not to my good friend's heresy that I impute his honesty. On the contrary, 'tis his honesty that has brought upon him the character of heretic." -- Ben Franklin
aknowledgeableperson
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 12650
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:31 pm

Common thinking on this forum

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

To Mr. Mean (or Ms Mean) Amen to that.
I may be right.  I may be wrong.  But there is a lot of gray area in-between.
User avatar
KCPowercat
Ambassador
Posts: 34031
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 12:49 pm
Location: Quality Hill
Contact:

Common thinking on this forum

Post by KCPowercat »

So here's what I'm getting out of your post.

-agreeing with or having faith in "authority" means you haven't throught critically about the subject.

- failures in the past by different leadership in the city translates into certain failures by a different group of leaders?

- The "staff" opinions on here keep people from posting opposing viewpoints.



Sorry mean we all don't have to agree with your viewpoint to mean we are critically thinking about the topic at hand. Get in here and show us some things to think about you think we are missing instead of just stating "they failed in the past, so they will again".

Oh and calling everybody jerks really doesn't open up any minds. There are plenty of sites on the internet.
http://downtownkcmo.blogspot.com

Tweeting live from Big 12 tournament @downtownkc
User avatar
tat2kc
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4196
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:32 pm
Location: freighthouse district
Contact:

Common thinking on this forum

Post by tat2kc »

who is not critical of the city? I live downtown, and I am affected daily by the city's missteps in the past, and its missteps as they try to correct their past problems.

The arena project and the enterainment district are mega-million dollar projects, involved state, local,a nd private funding sources, inolving complex multi-year deals. I could not go through an agreement like this and understand whether its a good deal or bad deal, or average for this type of project. I have to rely on the players to work in the best interest of the citizens (KCMO) or their own best interest (AEG, Sprint). To do that, I have to look at the record of MKB, and Cauthen. They've made mistakes, but they are, for the most part, trying to move the city forward. The mayor inhererited a downtown that was a disaster, and deferred maintainence backlogs that are a nightmare. But she at least has tried to do something about it, which is more than I can say of other mayors since I've been here. Cauthen has had the balls to do some major shakeups in the city, despite oppostion from entrenched politicians. AEG is investing 50 mill of thier own money to see the arena succeed, Sprint is putting tiher name on it. They all have vested interests in making sure the plan succeeds. If someone has a question, I have to assume that the answers given by the folks in charge are true.

The almost $1billion projecst (entertainment, H&R Block, arena) are a bit more complex than a home mortgage. Legitiimate questions regarding the projects are welcome and needed, but we can only go to the people invovled for accurate answers, not paid "experts" who are employed by either side to spin it positively or negatively.
Are you sure we're talking about the same God here, because yours sounds kind of like a dick.
mean
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 11238
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 9:00 am
Location: Historic Northeast

Common thinking on this forum

Post by mean »

So here's what I'm getting out of your post.

-agreeing with or having faith in "authority" means you haven't throught critically about the subject.
No, never saying anything critical, and not giving a chance to those who have made critical comments (CAAT, say) means you haven't and aren't willing to think critically about the subject. You don't have to agree with them, and their arguments (they have an agenda, too) should of course be viewed equally critically. But instantly ridiculing their viewpoints without fully considering them is not critical thinking, period, and that is what happened here, at least with regards to CAAT, Danaher, etc.
- failures in the past by different leadership in the city translates into certain failures by a different group of leaders?
Give me a break. If you think I said this or anything like it, please re-read what I posted earlier.

I said the city has more or less consistently failed. This is self-evident, and has been no matter who the people in charge have been, for some half century. I did not say this translates into certain failure for any project, that would have been foolish. The past does not predict the future, but it can give us a good idea of what to expect. At the very least, it should demonstrate the importance of critical analysis.
- The "staff" opinions on here keep people from posting opposing viewpoints.
Partially, sure. Is that unusual or surprising to you? Social dynamics, friend. It has certainly kept me away, but I have a feeling y'all might just prefer that. But then, that is part of the problem...
"It is not to my good friend's heresy that I impute his honesty. On the contrary, 'tis his honesty that has brought upon him the character of heretic." -- Ben Franklin
mean
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 11238
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 9:00 am
Location: Historic Northeast

Common thinking on this forum

Post by mean »

The arena project and the enterainment district are mega-million dollar projects, involved state, local,a nd private funding sources, inolving complex multi-year deals. I could not go through an agreement like this and understand whether its a good deal or bad deal, or average for this type of project.
I think you underestimate your own intelligence. I think almost any one of us could go through an agreement like this and understand whether it is a good or bad deal, given the time and inclination to do so. Granted, we don't ALL need to do so, and we don't ALL have the time or inclination. But when someone who does (say, Paul Danaher) looks at it and thinks it's a bunk deal, we should listen. That's what I'm saying.
"It is not to my good friend's heresy that I impute his honesty. On the contrary, 'tis his honesty that has brought upon him the character of heretic." -- Ben Franklin
mean
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 11238
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 9:00 am
Location: Historic Northeast

Common thinking on this forum

Post by mean »

Sorry mean we all don't have to agree with your viewpoint to mean we are critically thinking about the topic at hand. Get in here and show us some things to think about you think we are missing instead of just stating "they failed in the past, so they will again".
Sorry, I couldn't let this go.

What's funny is you don't know what my viewpoint is, except I want to see people being critical. You are, possibly intentionally, completely missing my point.

I am not stating 'they failed in the past, so they will again,' I am stating, 'they failed in the past, we should watch our asses really carefully,' and the arena is only tangental to my point -- we should watch our asses on ANY deal put forth by the city.
"It is not to my good friend's heresy that I impute his honesty. On the contrary, 'tis his honesty that has brought upon him the character of heretic." -- Ben Franklin
User avatar
KCPowercat
Ambassador
Posts: 34031
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 12:49 pm
Location: Quality Hill
Contact:

Common thinking on this forum

Post by KCPowercat »

mean...believe it or not, personally I do not post every one of my thought processes about a subject. I'd think most people do not. I throughly looked at the topics CAAT brought up, researched them, found many of them to be lies and the others to be scare tactics.

When points are brought up that X project will fail because we're giving away too many parking spots, many find those arguments to be overly critical and yes are probably shot down on here. For better or worse. It is what it is. Users are open to post any opinion they want....very little is censored on here and what is has nothing to do with opinions about the city.


Why stay away and keep your opinion on a subject quiet just because it isn't the popular one? Afraid other internet chatter will quickly shoot it down? So the hell what. Nothing on here is that serious.
http://downtownkcmo.blogspot.com

Tweeting live from Big 12 tournament @downtownkc
User avatar
KCPowercat
Ambassador
Posts: 34031
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 12:49 pm
Location: Quality Hill
Contact:

Common thinking on this forum

Post by KCPowercat »

But when someone who does (say, Paul Danaher) looks at it and thinks it's a bunk deal, we should listen. That's what I'm saying.
Seriously. Paul Danaher backing something up should put your critical thinking into full effect and stay away from it. What point did Paul bring up that we should have listened to? He is one of the worst at having an agenda......he doesn't believe in half the things he even says, at least that's the impression I got talking with him. He's out there trying to get face time for his own benefit and was given money to do so by CAAT.
http://downtownkcmo.blogspot.com

Tweeting live from Big 12 tournament @downtownkc
User avatar
KCPowercat
Ambassador
Posts: 34031
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 12:49 pm
Location: Quality Hill
Contact:

Common thinking on this forum

Post by KCPowercat »

mean wrote: I am not stating 'they failed in the past, so they will again,' I am stating, 'they failed in the past, we should watch our asses really carefully,' and the arena is only tangental to my point -- we should watch our asses on ANY deal put forth by the city.
I'm watching my ass no doubt....they don't get a blind yes vote from me. Implying that as you have with your prior posts is insulting to say the least.
http://downtownkcmo.blogspot.com

Tweeting live from Big 12 tournament @downtownkc
User avatar
tat2kc
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4196
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:32 pm
Location: freighthouse district
Contact:

Common thinking on this forum

Post by tat2kc »

Actually, mean, I did listen to Danaher's talk, and I listened to the other sides rebuttals. I was, in fact, somewhat hesitant about the arena. AEG's commitment, as well as Sprint's makes me feel better about it. Sure, its still a risk, but one that I am willing to take.

I don't always agree blindly with the city and what they want to do. When the Liberty memorial was closed because of its poor shape, I thought it should remain closed, and completely collapse, as a testament to the collosal failure of the city to manage it in any way. I wanted it to be a reimnder of just how arrogant and inept city hall was. Same thing with Union Station. What changed my mind was that both of these facilites were removed from city control. I felt that FINALLY, something good might come of those two places. I was excited when management of Kemper was given to an outside vendor, because cleary the city was not doing it.

The parties involved in the arena have a good track record. I'm comfortable with what they are proposing. I'm more comfortable with my concerns being answered by people who actually have experience in these types of ventures. I have some doubts about the concerns raised by some forum members who may or may not have dealt with these kinds of projects in the past. Sure, everyone should queston the deals and what the city is proposing. But, when I look for responses to the questons by Average Joe, I need to look at people with the credentials to answer the hard questons, not a forum member who speaks "in the know" about the inner workings of city/county/state agencies and public/private ventures.

If you have an issue with particular points regarding projecst, thats great. But shouldn't you also have a plan or an idea aobut how you'd handle things differently? Is the city's deal for the Sprint Arena the best deal? Hell if I know. We'd have to look at similar deals in other cities to see if we are on target or not. If not, what would make it better? Is it risk free? no, but is the risk level acceptable to you? For me, it is. I don't pretend to know the details of the agreement, not do I have the time to scrutinize the deal and research it. I have to trust the city that, based on what this administraton has done in the past, we've got a pretty decent deal. I am far more trusting of the city govt. today than I was when MKB came on board. She has a lot of truly bad moves to fix from previous administraions, and she's doing it.

But still dont' trust Parks and Rec one bit. They are a city department that truly needs to be cleaned out, top to bottom.
Are you sure we're talking about the same God here, because yours sounds kind of like a dick.
User avatar
KCPowercat
Ambassador
Posts: 34031
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 12:49 pm
Location: Quality Hill
Contact:

Common thinking on this forum

Post by KCPowercat »

Also look back at the history of this forum...there have been few "opposing viewpoint" individuals show up......the most vocal being KFB....his multiple comments put a lot of people on the defensive on here. People with opposing viewpoints like AKP have come in stated their points very well and have been taken very well I believe. It would be great to have more members like him bring up valid points....I do wish he'd back them up with more than him telling us he's worked close with the city and knows how these things work. On internet message boards, that doesn't hold much weight.

Anyways, users like that are very welcome....but many on here have been tainted by irrational comments of a few old members. People that would just come on here to say contrary things just to say them...not really bringing in valid points.
Last edited by KCPowercat on Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
http://downtownkcmo.blogspot.com

Tweeting live from Big 12 tournament @downtownkc
aknowledgeableperson
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 12650
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:31 pm

Common thinking on this forum

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

Just a minor technicality. The city's Park's Department is not a department in the true sense of the word. It is run by a Board that is appointed by the Mayor. Your MKB is currently responsible for the makeup of this board.
I may be right.  I may be wrong.  But there is a lot of gray area in-between.
User avatar
KCPowercat
Ambassador
Posts: 34031
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 12:49 pm
Location: Quality Hill
Contact:

Common thinking on this forum

Post by KCPowercat »

akp....also your mayor, correct?

Can you give us information on the board....did see appoint all the members currently there? Who are the members she did appoint?
http://downtownkcmo.blogspot.com

Tweeting live from Big 12 tournament @downtownkc
aknowledgeableperson
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 12650
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:31 pm

Common thinking on this forum

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

KCPowercat wrote:akp....also your mayor, correct?

Can you give us information on the board....did see appoint all the members currently there? Who are the members she did appoint?
To be correct MKB is also my mayor.
The Parks Board is composed of five members, use to be three. They are appointed by the Mayor without Council approval. Park's staff prepares the budget and it is submitted to the Council for approval. All current Board members have been appointed by MKB.
Members of the Board do not have terms, and are generally replaced by a new incoming Mayor.
I may be right.  I may be wrong.  But there is a lot of gray area in-between.
aknowledgeableperson
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 12650
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:31 pm

Common thinking on this forum

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

KCPowercat wrote:AKP have come in stated their points very well and have been taken very well I believe. It would be great to have more members like him bring up valid points....I do wish he'd back them up with more than him telling us he's worked close with the city and knows how these things work.
Thanks. Since I am now retired my access to documents is limited. I can relate my experiences however and that is what I have done for the most part.

Why don't I trust studies? Have seen too many tainted by the points the sponsors are trying to make. If you go back to the bond prospectus for Kemper Arena it should have been a big financial success. It wasn't. Not because of city staff but the failure of the hockey and then the basketball team. The study for Kemper said it would have over 200 dates, if not more. Dates such as Roller Derby and wrestling at least every month. Untold number of concerts, and other family shows. And so on.
With regards to the Sports Commission Study I have not seen the final report but I did see preliminary numbers and helped by providing some numbers to be used. What numbers I saw were very optimistic, let's say at the very upper end of the scale and although tainable, maybe not realistic. Where is AEG study of the KC marketplace?
I may be right.  I may be wrong.  But there is a lot of gray area in-between.
User avatar
tat2kc
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4196
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:32 pm
Location: freighthouse district
Contact:

Common thinking on this forum

Post by tat2kc »

The curent board has done a better job in maintaining the parks, but still not close to what they should be doing. A good example is Case Park, downtown, and Oppenhiemer Park. It wasn't until they turned over management of those 2 parks to and outside vendor that changes happened. These folks need to raise hell if they don't have the funding or resources to mainain the parks and boulevards and fountians. Most of the rec centers are in poor shape, and nowt hey want to build a new aquatics center in the norhtland, once again stretching limited resources to maintian another new facility, at the expense of the ones we already have. Barnes and Cauthen need to focus on that Board next. This remains one of my pet peeves about the city.

But with a blilion plus in deferred maintainence, you have to start somewhere. I storgly object to the money from the tax we passed for deferred maintainence goint to new projects, at least until we fix what we have. That is one area I do think the city messed up. I understand why they did it, but I hate it.
Are you sure we're talking about the same God here, because yours sounds kind of like a dick.
User avatar
KCPowercat
Ambassador
Posts: 34031
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 12:49 pm
Location: Quality Hill
Contact:

Common thinking on this forum

Post by KCPowercat »

Why should AEG's private market study for their company be public? AEG obviously believes in the market to be coming in at all. Enough about that, this really isn't the topic for this specifically.

my point was you must understand the members being skeptical of somebody naming themselves "aknowledgeableperson" and mearly stating they know what's going on because 20 years ago they worked with the city....or whatever. That type of questioning is normal and expected.

The points made are still very well accepted I believe...nobody has told akp to "shut up" or "go away" because he has a opposing viewpoint of the majority of the forum.
http://downtownkcmo.blogspot.com

Tweeting live from Big 12 tournament @downtownkc
KCN
Penntower
Penntower
Posts: 2004
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 8:03 pm
Location: Brookside

Common thinking on this forum

Post by KCN »

mean wrote:No, never saying anything critical, and not giving a chance to those who have made critical comments (CAAT, say) means you haven't and aren't willing to think critically about the subject. You don't have to agree with them, and their arguments (they have an agenda, too) should of course be viewed equally critically. But instantly ridiculing their viewpoints without fully considering them is not critical thinking, period, and that is what happened here, at least with regards to CAAT, Danaher, etc.
KCP, scooterj, kcteen and others went through CAAT arguments and did a detailed, researched analysis/rebuttal point by point and published their analysis publicly. I would hardly call that "instantly ridiculing". What more did you want?
aknowledgeableperson
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 12650
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:31 pm

Common thinking on this forum

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

KCPowercat wrote:Why should AEG's private market study for their company be public? AEG obviously believes in the market to be coming in at all. Enough about that, this really isn't the topic for this specifically.
Why shouldn't AEG and the Sports Commission make their studies public? They are making positive comments about them and expect the city to spend public funds in support of their endeavors. The citizens have much riding on this and are we just suppose to take their word for it? Anybody else looking for taxpayer dollars would be required to release these studies. Developers seeking TIF funds are just one example.
I may be right.  I may be wrong.  But there is a lot of gray area in-between.
Post Reply