Earnings Tax

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zonk
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Re: Earnings Tax

Post by zonk »

E-TAX = TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION

As someone who owns property in KCMO, operates multiple businesses in KCMO, invests most of my money in KCMO, but lives outside the City, I only see the the e-tax as a boon-doggle for those non-kcmo residents.  It would be one thing if we could actually have a say in where and how our tax dollars are spent.  But right now i only see the City of KCMO pissing away all tax revenue.

It's unfortunate that the City relies upon the e-tax for so much.  I'd probably be happier about it if the City spent my $$ better.

Also....on a side note:  BILL SKAGGS IS A PIECE OF CRAP FOR WASTING THE CITY'S MONEY IN THE LAWSUIT AGAINST THE CITY.  That made a lot of sense right???  Just like his Lawsuit!  It's estimated that the City has already spent $75,000 in defense of the suit brought by Skaggs against the City for the Cauthen contract.  Skaggs should be held directly accountable for this and these funds should be taken out of both his office budget and his PIAC in-district funds.

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Re: Earnings Tax

Post by WyCo »

kard wrote: I live in MO but pay KS income taxes.  Noooooo!

I guess you could sum this whole thing up as "sometimes, life just isn't fair."
I live in KS and pay MO taxes.

But I agree, life isn't always fair, no big deal.  I just get tired of hearing the rationalization that all MO taxes on Kansas people are justified due to the wear and tear on the infrasructure.  By that logic, everyone should pay an e-tax in whatever city they work in, Lee's Summit, Belton, KCK, Lenexa and on and on and on.

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Re: Earnings Tax

Post by Slappy the Wang »

Not sure if it's been posted or not, but a senate bill has been introduced to kill the e-tax in 2013.  I doubt if it moves forward.
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Re: Earnings Tax

Post by DaveKCMO »

i pay sales taxes in kansas and i don't complain about a lack of representation. i figure if i'm using a city's services, why the rub? granted, the e-tax shouldn't really exist for a city our size, but it does and it's only 1%. if the state ends up outlawing it, fine... but they had better come up with a way to help the KC and STL make the transition.

zonk
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Re: Earnings Tax

Post by zonk »

Yeah, i also pay sales tax in MO and don't complain.  That's a bad example because every municipality has sales tax.  My only rub is that KCMO City Government can do a better job at allocating tax dollars.

ONCE AGAIN....TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION.  I'm suprised this hasn't been challenged legally.

WoodDraw
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Re: Earnings Tax

Post by WoodDraw »

zonk wrote: Yeah, i also pay sales tax in MO and don't complain.  That's a bad example because every municipality has sales tax.  My only rub is that KCMO City Government can do a better job at allocating tax dollars.

ONCE AGAIN....TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION.  I'm suprised this hasn't been challenged legally.
What makes a sales tax and an earnings tax any different?  Both are taxes levied on you by governments you have no representation with.  In both cases, you consciously choose to pay the tax, giving up other alternatives.  You're free to both live and work outside the city, and not pay an earnings tax.  By working in the city, you agree to be taxed by it.

Your use of taxation without representation is a fundamental misuse of the phrase.  It'd be like me working or shopping in Canada and then claiming to have a voting right there based on my earnings or spending, with no regards to citizenship.  You have no claim to voting rights in a place where you hold no citizenship.  You are not a citizen of Kansas City, and therefore have no voting right in what we do.  If you don't like it, don't come here.

aknowledgeableperson
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Re: Earnings Tax

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

It is very interesting about the e-tax now.

When it was passed the rate was .5%.  And most of the jobs in the KC area were located in KCMO.  And it came into existence when the suburbs really started to grow (people leaving KCMO).  And the city's primary revenue source was the property tax.  The city was reluctant to increase the property tax rate since that could mean even more people leaving KCMO.  The e-tax was a way to tax those who left KCMO but still had jobs in KCMO.  St. Louie and KC were not the only cities that passed this tax, other cities did as well in order to tax those who left the city.
Now the rate is 1%.  And KCMO may have the majority of the area's jobs but other areas of the metro have increased their job base.  The e-tax is now the city's primary revenue source for the general fund.  The property tax rate has not been increased by the voters for a very long time.

With a majority of the area's population living outside of KCMO and with the number of area jobs outside of KCMO maybe the e-tax does put the city at a disadvantage.  At the same time since the city does rely so heavily on this tax it will be very difficult to replace, especially with all of the economic incentives that have been given out.
I may be right.  I may be wrong.  But there is a lot of gray area in-between.

zonk
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Re: Earnings Tax

Post by zonk »

WoodDraw wrote: What makes a sales tax and an earnings tax any different?  Both are taxes levied on you by governments you have no representation with.  In both cases, you consciously choose to pay the tax, giving up other alternatives.  You're free to both live and work outside the city, and not pay an earnings tax.  By working in the city, you agree to be taxed by it.

Your use of taxation without representation is a fundamental misuse of the phrase.  It'd be like me working or shopping in Canada and then claiming to have a voting right there based on my earnings or spending, with no regards to citizenship.  You have no claim to voting rights in a place where you hold no citizenship.  You are not a citizen of Kansas City, and therefore have no voting right in what we do.  If you don't like it, don't come here.
](*,) VERY NICE WOODY.....Kind of like the "if you don't like it-Fuck You attitude"?  Or the "I'm the smartest man in the world theory" from our esteemed Mayor?  That's bullshit....I can't vote why????  I've paid my dues, I own property in KCMO, I work in KCMO, for the love of GOD, I PAY TAXES IN KCMO.....just because I don't reside within the territorial boundaries of the City, doesn't mean I shouldn't have a say?  That's ridculous.  What your saying is if I don't like it don't come to town?  If that's the case then KCMO needs to quit bitchin about regionalism and having surrounding residents pay for City amenities.  BOTTOM LINE.....If you want to squander more of my money, I at least want a say in how it's spent.

...good night now.

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Re: Earnings Tax

Post by shaffe »

zonk do you drive on any roads when you come into the city to do your business?  do you utilize the stoplights, use water/electricity, benefit from snow removal, or benefit from KCPD and KCFD support for you locations?

and yes, simply because you don't live in the right place you can't vote on things.  welcome to america, where it's been done like that for almost 250 years.

zonk
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Re: Earnings Tax

Post by zonk »

shaffe wrote: zonk do you drive on any roads when you come into the city to do your business?  do you utilize the stoplights, use water/electricity, benefit from snow removal, or benefit from KCPD and KCFD support for you locations?
Yes to all above....but i also own property and pay taxes just like you.  (also, we could argue that the stoplights sometimes don't work, the snow isn't removed, the police don't always respond in a timely manner....but is that my fault?)
shaffe wrote: and yes, simply because you don't live in the right place you can't vote on things.  welcome to america, where it's been done like that for almost 250 years.
So don't come running to Lee's Summit, Prairie Village, Liberty or St. Joe to help fund the zoo, the K, Camerohead, and the like.  Don't get me wrong, you and Woody have decent arguments, I just would like to see the City spend the money they have better.

...good night now.

shaffe
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Re: Earnings Tax

Post by shaffe »

i can totally understand somebody thinking the city isn't doing a good job with the budget - i'm not sure how great of a job i think they're doing myself.  but to eliminate the e-tax would strike a likely killer blow to the city of kansas city from a financial standpoint and i don't exactly see anybody proposing an idea to cover that $300M or whatever it is annually.

but people who work in the city but live elsewhere collect plenty of "hidden" benefits, well enough imo to justify 1%.


an interesting tangent, how could the city go about recouping the money lost if the tax was abolished?  hike up property taxes and utility fees?  increase the sales tax?  i honestly don't know what the potential ramifications are.

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Re: Earnings Tax

Post by GRID »

I don't know where my federal taxes go, where my county taxes go, where my state taxes go.  I don't even know where my cell phone taxes go.  Taxation without representation?  When I worked in Kansas and lived in Missouri, I don't remember voting for anybody.

What do you want KCMO to do?  Send everybody an itemized spreadsheet showing exactly where everybody's Etax goes?  Maybe they can fill ten floors of city hall with people just to do that.

It's the general fund.  The Etax goes to anything and everything that it takes to run a city.

KCMO is not perfect, just like StLoius, Denver Seattle and even Overland Park.  But to say the city doesn't deserve the Etax because KCMO does not offer the same services as Overland Park is ridiculous.  That Etax keeps KCMO from being a hell of a lot worse than it is.  KCMO is spread out over 300 square miles with only 450k residents.  KCMO is ignored by the state of Missouri and KCMO bears the vast majority of the metro areas regional attractions.  KCMO is also the primary city of Kansas but gets nothing from that state (not that it should)..  But not only that, KCMO residents pay the Etax no matter where they work.  The Etax is the only thing that has kept KCMO in as good a financial shape as it's in.

What is the big deal with the Etax?  Regardless of how it became, it's needed today, especially in bistate KC.  It's one of the only ways KCMO gets some regional funding and a way to keep other taxes low.  Remember, the Etax is also paid by businesses and the city uses their ability to tif the etax to help bring in business.

Maybe someday we can phase it out and people can look for the next excuse the diss on KCMO as the worst city in the world.  But to even mention eliminated that tax without having even a basic idea of how to replace that revenue is simply irresponsible.

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Re: Earnings Tax

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

zonk wrote: ](*,) VERY NICE WOODY.....Kind of like the "if you don't like it-Fuck You attitude"?  Or the "I'm the smartest man in the world theory" from our esteemed Mayor?  That's bullshit....I can't vote why????  I've paid my dues, I own property in KCMO, I work in KCMO, for the love of GOD, I PAY TAXES IN KCMO.....just because I don't reside within the territorial boundaries of the City, doesn't mean I shouldn't have a say?  That's ridculous.  What your saying is if I don't like it don't come to town?  If that's the case then KCMO needs to quit bitchin about regionalism and having surrounding residents pay for City amenities.  BOTTOM LINE.....If you want to squander more of my money, I at least want a say in how it's spent.

...good night now.
There are state, county, and city sales taxes that are charged to any buyer no matter where they are from and if you are not from that government entity you have no say or representation or vote on it.  Hotel/motel taxes are paid by outsiders and they have no vote or representation on the tax. You live in Kansas and work in Missouri, or the reverse, and you have no say in the income tax collected in the state you work in so where is your representation there? And the e-tax came into being long before the Funk came to town so that tax has nothing to do with him.

So quit your bellyaching.  You can always, move, change jobs, or sell the property if you don't like the taxes imposed without your so-called representation.
I may be right.  I may be wrong.  But there is a lot of gray area in-between.

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Re: Earnings Tax

Post by Highlander »

aknowledgeableperson wrote: There are state, county, and city sales taxes that are charged to any buyer no matter where they are from and if you are not from that government entity you have no say or representation or vote on it.  Hotel/motel taxes are paid by outsiders and they have no vote or representation on the tax. You live in Kansas and work in Missouri, or the reverse, and you have no say in the income tax collected in the state you work in so where is your representation there? And the e-tax came into being long before the Funk came to town so that tax has nothing to do with him.
For once I agree.  I pay a lot of UK taxes and have absolutely no say.  I also pay a lot of US taxes and rarely benefit from any of the services they support.  When I travel, I pay airport taxes for which I cannot control, same with car rental and so forth.  In fact, government entities are most likely to tax those who cannot vote because it is more palatable to their constituencies and that is true for every place I have been.  That's why hotel taxes and car rental taxes are so high.  The E-Tax is absolutely essential to KCMO.  Companies and individuals are free to go elsewhere if they do not like it but I suspect that not many (if any) are seriously enough bothered by the E-tax to actually make a decision to leave the city based on it.

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grovester
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Re: Earnings Tax

Post by grovester »

kard wrote: I live in MO but pay KS income taxes.  Noooooo!

I guess you could sum this whole thing up as "sometimes, life just isn't fair."
There is always inequality in life. Some men are killed in a war and some men are wounded and some men never leave the country. Life is unfair.
John F. Kennedy

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GRID
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Re: Earnings Tax

Post by GRID »

I'm not paying my MO income tax till MO widens I-70 in Eastern Jax!!!!!!

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Re: Earnings Tax

Post by LenexatoKCMO »

Both (R) candidates for Governor are now on record favoring outlawing the E-taxes.  Neither appears to have any plans for alternative funding.  Apparently the G Bush Economic Theory is spreading throughout the party - cut taxes, increase spending, to hell with the consequences!. 

http://www.kansascity.com/news/breaking ... 06266.html

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Re: Earnings Tax

Post by lock+load »

Why is this even an issue?  If KCMO wants to get rid of the e-tax, let it happen locally.  The state doesn't need to meddle.

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Re: Earnings Tax

Post by GRID »

LenexatoKCMO wrote: Both (R) candidates for Governor are now on record favoring outlawing the E-taxes.  Neither appears to have any plans for alternative funding.  Apparently the G Bush Economic Theory is spreading throughout the party - cut taxes, increase spending, to hell with the consequences!. 

http://www.kansascity.com/news/breaking ... 06266.html
KC will be down to 400k by 2012 if they get rid of that tax.  People have no idea what that will do to KCMO.  It will basically turn the city into KCK (economic development wise) and most KCMO suburban growth will halt and urban core hemorrhaging will enhance.  Nobody likes sky high property and sales taxes, especially when combined with far less city services.  But all that northland growth will head to Liberty and eastern Jax though!

I hate say "I told you so" because most of the time, when I say it, it's bad for KC.  I hope to hell I don't have to say I told you so on this issue too  :(.
Last edited by GRID on Mon May 05, 2008 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Earnings Tax

Post by LenexatoKCMO »

lock+load wrote: Why is this even an issue?   If KCMO wants to get rid of the e-tax, let it happen locally.  The state doesn't need to meddle.
Its an issue because the repubs know the only way they have a chance to crack into any votes in KCMO and St. Louis it to offer up populist garbage. 

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