Rankings, lists, and such

KC topics that don't fit anywhere else.
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normalthings
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Re: Rankings, lists, and such

Post by normalthings » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:22 am

chrizow wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:50 am
shit, STL going NEGATIVE? how is that possible, esp. with the cortex corridor? or is that not considered downtown?

Cortex is still in its early phases. The startup focused events I have attended there are filled with 45+ crowds.

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warwickland
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Re: Rankings, lists, and such

Post by warwickland » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:23 pm

earthling wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:32 am
chrizow wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:50 am
shit, STL going NEGATIVE? how is that possible, esp. with the cortex corridor? or is that not considered downtown?
Cortex not considered downtown and they may be choosing CWE area. But even so STL is not doing well with brain gain. They are generating more tech degrees than KC but losing them.

Image
Agreed. Also I don't think downtown st. louis residential is the huge twentysomething magnet it might seem, lots of thirties and up. The St. Louis "urban residential market" is (perhaps unfortunately) 9 miles long and however wide with a huge amount of variation. Walkable non-downtown neighborhoods become popular and I think it sort of slows down downtown. I was walking in this neighborhood https://goo.gl/maps/QpAdtdWVihfCwd427 the other day after dinner (8-9 miles west of downtown?) which sort of exemplifies what is happening in the "greater west end" urban landscape well beyond the city limits...even there there are cheaper older units that twenty somethings live in (or parents invest in) with walkable commercial at the end of the street. https://goo.gl/maps/YcrB4tk2fUP55NgB9 There's a nice wide boulevard with a fat bike lane and nice wide sidewalks that go all the way to forest park...a lot of people prefer that over a semi-sterile downtown, if there are other options and a limited pool of people.

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beautyfromashes
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Re: Rankings, lists, and such

Post by beautyfromashes » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:14 pm

St. Louis has some of the best historic residential stock that I’ve seen available. Pre-1900, handlayed brickwork, plasterwork is amazing and are all super cheap. They just don’t have as many young people who want to see a better urban society develop. Honestly, if I could stomach the city at all I would move there and buy up everything. The problem is that I’ve never met a more racist, wannabe uppercrust, backward society as St. Louis. It’s really that terrible.

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Re: Rankings, lists, and such

Post by chingon » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:40 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:14 pm
St. Louis has some of the best historic residential stock that I’ve seen available.
Meh, I’m kind of with the kids on this one. St Louis has a fairly unique look. It’s just not one a lot of people really want, or the downsides to St Louis do not outweigh whatever charm someone might feel, and there’s certainly some charming neighborhoods, but there’s also a lot of just monotonous and disinteresting boxes that are not much more than ranch houses of the turn of the century.

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Re: Rankings, lists, and such

Post by beautyfromashes » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:21 pm

chingon wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:40 pm
beautyfromashes wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:14 pm
St. Louis has some of the best historic residential stock that I’ve seen available.
Meh, I’m kind of with the kids on this one. St Louis has a fairly unique look. It’s just not one a lot of people really want, or the downsides to St Louis do not outweigh whatever charm someone might feel, and there’s certainly some charming neighborhoods, but there’s also a lot of just monotonous and disinteresting boxes that are not much more than ranch houses of the turn of the century.
There are a lot of boxes, but between Forest Park and DT there are some great old houses that are cheap. High ceilings, curved turrets, lots of charm. The neighborhoods probably aren’t great but their close in to a larger DT, close to light rail and I see lots of value.

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warwickland
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Re: Rankings, lists, and such

Post by warwickland » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:32 am

beautyfromashes wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:14 pm
St. Louis has some of the best historic residential stock that I’ve seen available. Pre-1900, handlayed brickwork, plasterwork is amazing and are all super cheap. They just don’t have as many young people who want to see a better urban society develop. Honestly, if I could stomach the city at all I would move there and buy up everything. The problem is that I’ve never met a more racist, wannabe uppercrust, backward society as St. Louis. It’s really that terrible.
damn! i personally don't think kc and st. louis are really all that different except that st. louis is one victorian/industrial boom cycle older and a larger and more isolated disadvantaged population. kc homicide rates (when you isolate the central city which of course nobody does) are nothing to sneeze at.

sounds like you met some chesterworlds or something. i've sure met the worst of the 435 south group. or the worst of eastjack.
Last edited by warwickland on Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Rankings, lists, and such

Post by warwickland » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:36 am

chingon wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:40 pm
beautyfromashes wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:14 pm
St. Louis has some of the best historic residential stock that I’ve seen available.
Meh, I’m kind of with the kids on this one. St Louis has a fairly unique look. It’s just not one a lot of people really want, or the downsides to St Louis do not outweigh whatever charm someone might feel, and there’s certainly some charming neighborhoods, but there’s also a lot of just monotonous and disinteresting boxes that are not much more than ranch houses of the turn of the century.
i mean, there is also an entire secondary urban core strewn with trees and boulevards that basically just looks like a brickier kcmo (thats probably the population of urban kcmo) starting at hampton or whatever that pushes west through webster groves (which looks exactly like brookside in places with multiple downtowns) and on into kirkwood (not to mention clayton, u-city, richmond heights, maplewood, etc). it's not all brick boxes under smoke stacks.

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Re: Rankings, lists, and such

Post by warwickland » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:14 am

Image

stl is kc's papa don't be mean to papa

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Re: Rankings, lists, and such

Post by warwickland » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:39 am

i expected nashville to be higher but i guess owe that to their outrageous hype machine.

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Re: Rankings, lists, and such

Post by brewcrew1000 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:12 am

beautyfromashes wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:14 pm
St. Louis has some of the best historic residential stock that I’ve seen available. Pre-1900, handlayed brickwork, plasterwork is amazing and are all super cheap. They just don’t have as many young people who want to see a better urban society develop. Honestly, if I could stomach the city at all I would move there and buy up everything. The problem is that I’ve never met a more racist, wannabe uppercrust, backward society as St. Louis. It’s really that terrible.
I agree, i was really close to buying a house in decent shape by Gravios park for like 8,000. The neighborhood isn't that great but it had potential. The thing that i hate about St Louis is the flow/layout. You have huge swaths on Industrial just ripping right thru the city between I-44 and I-64 and I feel like that breaks up the city in half and makes some neighborhoods isolated from eachother (I guess some could see that as a good thing)

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Re: Rankings, lists, and such

Post by beautyfromashes » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:21 am

warwickland wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:32 am
personally don't think kc and st. louis are really all that different except that st. louis is one victorian/industrial boom cycle older...
This might be it. There are some amazing Victorians in St. Louis while there are very few in KC that I know of. Pendleton Heights has a few very nice ones but they would be very expensive. St. Louis seems to have whole neighborhoods of turrets and curved parlors and carriage houses and are all super cheap because no one dare live past Webster Groves.

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Re: Rankings, lists, and such

Post by earthling » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:24 am

Have posted before that my brother in law from STL and I were discussing why is KC progressing fairly well and STL still shrinking despite serious crime problems with both. He sells industrial parts/supply across the Midwest, spending a lot of time in KC/STL industrial areas/factories. He said that in STL, when shit hits the fan they run around like chicken with head cuttoff coming up with overly complex solutions to catch the flying shit. In KC, they unplug the fan.

When I ask why outsiders who lived in STL left, the common answer is around tense/uptight people, not crime, and those who stay is for the job. When asking outsiders why they stay in KC the common answer is the laid back people and they may leave for bigger/better opportunity. Anecdotal of course.

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Re: Rankings, lists, and such

Post by warwickland » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:28 am

earthling wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:24 am
He said that in STL, when shit hits the fan they run around like chicken with head cuttoff coming up with overly complex solutions to catch the flying shit. In KC, they unplug the fan.
hahahahah. not going to argue this one, he may be on to something. the vast and varied mid century urban renewal schemes are a testament to this but i've also seen this live.
Last edited by warwickland on Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rankings, lists, and such

Post by warwickland » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:31 am

earthling wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:24 am

When I ask why outsiders who lived in STL left, the common answer is around tense/uptight people, not crime, and those who stay is for the job.
this one could also be related to the fact that there is a massive boomer population in st. louis, and less a regional characteristic. people tend to be fairly laid back about certain things like drinking beer in public at any and every opportunity including it being legal in city parks and the fact that drinking beer in a car being legal in missouri came from st. louis (perhaps not other things, could be a germanic thing...social patterns are similar to books i've read about social circles in germany). kc does have more social openness, more like a western u.s. pattern.

this is sort of on a loose continuum as you approach the ohio valley...i don't think st. louis is as closed off as it was merely 10 years ago, and is more similar to say indianapolis in this respect as it has ever been. kansas city is certainly on the open end of the continuum for a midwestern city when it comes to social circles/patterns.

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Re: Rankings, lists, and such

Post by KC_JAYHAWK » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:41 pm

warwickland wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:31 am
earthling wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:24 am

When I ask why outsiders who lived in STL left, the common answer is around tense/uptight people, not crime, and those who stay is for the job.
this one could also be related to the fact that there is a massive boomer population in st. louis, and less a regional characteristic. people tend to be fairly laid back about certain things like drinking beer in public at any and every opportunity including it being legal in city parks and the fact that drinking beer in a car being legal in missouri came from st. louis (perhaps not other things, could be a germanic thing...social patterns are similar to books i've read about social circles in germany). kc does have more social openness, more like a western u.s. pattern.

this is sort of on a loose continuum as you approach the ohio valley...i don't think st. louis is as closed off as it was merely 10 years ago, and is more similar to say indianapolis in this respect as it has ever been. kansas city is certainly on the open end of the continuum for a midwestern city when it comes to social circles/patterns.
WHAT? You can "legally" drink beer in a car in Missouri? :shock: I had no freaking clue...wow.

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Re: Rankings, lists, and such

Post by chrizow » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:12 pm

while i agree 100% with the idea of STL seeming "closed-off" and KC seeming comparatively "open," i really have no idea why i have this impression. what accounts for this?

i think STL is cursed (and i guess also blessed) by having a very large urban core. it's so large, and it emptied out so much, that i think it would take a massive influx of young/new folks to really make it feel like things are changing, to connect all the various "dots." all of KC's momentum is focused on a pretty narrow north-south swath of the city, so i think it "feels" like things are coalescing more? (counter-point: new folks and stuff popping up in relatively isolated parts of the city like strawberry hill, W bottoms, NKC, etc. which, while cool, do nothing to really add to the aggregate momentum)

i've said this elsewhere, but my main beef with STL is that the very real "cool factor" and abundant charm seems relatively outweighed by the "pain in the ass factor" of relatively bad traffic and attitude compared to KC or other cities. some cities are so cool and exciting it's worth an increase in the PITA factor, but STL for me is not that.

KC has the inverse. any problems i have with KC's weaker points are smoothed-over by how "easy" it seems to live here (for now).

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Re: Rankings, lists, and such

Post by beautyfromashes » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:22 pm

^agree with your whole post.
chrizow wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:12 pm
while i agree 100% with the idea of STL seeming "closed-off" and KC seeming comparatively "open," i really have no idea why i have this impression. what accounts for this?
I think KC is much more connected to farming communities in the Midwest. Most everyone I know is only one or two generations removed from a farm in Iowa or Nebraska or rural Kansas/Missouri. When your DNA is rolling down a dusty farm road and waving at the guy coming the opposite direction it makes you a more open person. Many in St. Louis have a much different history.

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Re: Rankings, lists, and such

Post by earthling » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:42 pm

All of the West is traditionally more 'open' and relatively laid back to varying degrees, farming or not. KC was the real gateway to the West, the major stopping point for those from E looking for opportunity. Different historical mindset than STL inwardness.
Last edited by earthling on Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rankings, lists, and such

Post by warwickland » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:42 pm

chrizow wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:12 pm
i've said this elsewhere, but my main beef with STL is that the very real "cool factor" and abundant charm seems relatively outweighed by the "pain in the ass factor" of relatively bad traffic and attitude compared to KC or other cities. some cities are so cool and exciting it's worth an increase in the PITA factor, but STL for me is not that.

KC has the inverse. any problems i have with KC's weaker points are smoothed-over by how "easy" it seems to live here (for now).
this is interesting to me...both cities are pretty convenient compared to what is becoming the norm in north america. i spent 2.5 hours in gatorade-pee-bottle level traffic just trying to cross vancouver last week. it was more frustrating than anything i've experienced around LA.
earthling wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:42 pm
All of the West is traditionally more 'open' and relative laid back to varying degrees, farming or not. KC was the real gateway to the West, the major stopping point for those from E looking for opportunity. Different historical mindset than STL inwardness.
after some amount of research/digging on this topic over the years, i really think that the stl inwardness thing was a latter twentieth century development centered around the first big demographic backslides, especially by the time the region was first shocked with a declining metropolitan population in the 1970s. i think if you wind the clock back to the 60s and before it was different, based upon A LOT of first hand accounts for starters...you go back to mid century and it was a rather cosmopolitan city for say the 1950s, and nationally much higher profile and tier than now...sort of like a seattle if not even higher.

i also am convinced that sort of thing has peaked (probably in the early 00s), and become more innocuous, the sort of thing we like to poke fun at ourselves over. i mean i'm convinced that even cincinnati is visibly pulling out of it's own thing like that, and i considered it even more insular.

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Re: Rankings, lists, and such

Post by chrizow » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:58 pm

warwickland wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:42 pm
chrizow wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:12 pm
i've said this elsewhere, but my main beef with STL is that the very real "cool factor" and abundant charm seems relatively outweighed by the "pain in the ass factor" of relatively bad traffic and attitude compared to KC or other cities. some cities are so cool and exciting it's worth an increase in the PITA factor, but STL for me is not that.

KC has the inverse. any problems i have with KC's weaker points are smoothed-over by how "easy" it seems to live here (for now).
this is interesting to me...both cities are pretty convenient compared to what is becoming the norm in north america. i spent 2.5 hours in gatorade-pee-bottle level traffic just trying to cross vancouver last week. it was more frustrating than anything i've experienced around LA.
for sure. STL has nowhere near LA-level traffic, or Boston-level attitude, but for me there's a certain friction to STL that i dont get in KC (could be selective bias). the juice not being worth the squeeze. i kinda feel like KC and STL have comparative juice but disparate squeeze.

i am the same way with Chicago. i would never in a million years live in that city. it's objectively awesome on many levels but i can't deal with the traffic, attitude, cost, winters, whatever for the level of awesome it provides.

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