The KCMO School District

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voltopt
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Re: The KCMO School District

Post by voltopt »

And Westport was the neighborhood school for midtown. This argument is disingenuous as both SW and Westport are closed due to lack of students. We can't wish a school to exist due to history; the reality is there is a neighborhood school, it is only 2.5 miles from Brookside, and people on the west side of town will not use it.

SW, if open as a neighborhood school, would serve parts of Waldo that are also 2.5 miles from it. I don't think a neighborhood high school means 'people will walk to it', that would require quite a few more high schools.

I know, people see an empty building and say; "why not?" It takes a lot to operate a high school; to provide a complete experience. Just ask the charter schools that are attempting to duplicate the high school experience on a small scale. It eats up resources, and having multiple charter districts inside of a public district duplicates resources. I'd suggest the best way to get SW open, if the goal is a "neighborhood, walk-able, historic high school," is to choose your neighborhood public elementary school and commit to the district. I'd also suggest you go on a tour of SE, your neighborhood high school, or if you live in Midtown, of Central Academy.

Fun side note - SE is still closer to students on the west side of Brookside/Waldo than the various Shawnee Mission high schools are to each other.

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chaglang
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Re: The KCMO School District

Post by chaglang »

herrfrank wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:33 am
Southeast may be a neighborhood school, but it's the Swope Park neighborhood, not Brookside.

A neighborhood school means the kids can walk there. Southwest HS is clearly the neighborhood high school for Brookside (and it was that historically).

The Kansas City Missouri School Board has been a disaster for half of a century. Failed schools, failed people. Best option: dissolve the KCMSD and let each neighborhood build their own schools with local control.
There aren't enough schools in KCMO to fit your definition of a neighborhood school, unless you are willing to stretch acceptable walking distances. But you'll recall that even when SW was open and walkable to Brookside residents, it was largely abandoned by the community.

Dismantling the KCSD works best for the same people who have already abandoned the district. Breaking up the KCSD would guarantee local control, though not any level of success greater than the district. But there are few, if any, neighborhoods equipped to take on the responsibility of running a school. What happens to kids in neighborhoods not large enough to support a school? And if a school closed, there's nothing to guarantee that another would take its place, which leads to the possibility that there could be a shortage of schools in some areas of the city.

Can I ask though - why does it matter at all? Brookside seems to be perfectly fine without Southwest.

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normalthings
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Re: The KCMO School District

Post by normalthings »

Let's take a look at school spending vs results in 2019. Costs per student from MO Dept of Education.


Elementary:

It is a bit harder to compare the cost per student of elementary vs outcomes.

KCPS's Holiday Elementary School spends a mind-blowing $30,000 per student per year. Compare that to the $10,000 per year that Academy Lafayette spends per student. KCPS's average per elementary appears to be around $14,000.

High School

The comparison is expense per student vs. ACT scores in high schools.


Clayton High School: $19,000 per student; ACT = 26.1
Paseo Arts Academy (KCPS):$ 18,000 per student; ACT = 15
Center High School (Center): $18,000 per student; ACT = 15

Kauffman High School (KCPS): $16,000 per student; ACT = 23
East High School (KCPS): $15,000 per student; ACT = 14.1
Crossroads Charter HS (KCPS): $14,000 per student; ACT =
Park Hill South: $13,000 per student; ACT = 22.4
Lee's Summit: $11,000 per student; ACT = 22


https://stateofmissouri.app.box.com/s/1 ... 3737767611

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Re: The KCMO School District

Post by flyingember »

That data set is interesting.

Look at the extremes and this clearly isn't comparing apples to apples in a way that you can blindly assume you can use it as a proxy to show how money spent determines school outcome.

Truman High School reports $5600 per student in spending.
On the other end Breckenridge High reports $30,000 per student for 31 students.

You have issues with economy of scale in the comparison. Fixed costs are assigned to a lot fewer students in some district

Fixed costs will differ. Look at opportunities like Google Fiber giving many KC schools free Internet. There could be other deals across the state, like a community might give their schools free security.

Costs may be split out differently. One district may assign a certain elementary-level cost to the specific school, another to the district where it's averaged across all schools.


And your use of ACT scores is also interesting, because scores aren't based on total correct answers but the overall curve nationally. If a school improves by 50% and the rest of the country improved by 30% your school's scores won't show a 50% increase even though the individual results dramatically improved.

You're not picking something that shows just Missouri results either since it's a national number.

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Re: The KCMO School District

Post by kboish »

normalthings wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:58 pm
Let's take a look at school spending vs results in 2019. Costs per student from MO Dept of Education.


Elementary:

It is a bit harder to compare the cost per student of elementary vs outcomes.

KCPS's Holiday Elementary School spends a mind-blowing $30,000 per student per year. Compare that to the $10,000 per year that Academy Lafayette spends per student. KCPS's average per elementary appears to be around $14,000.

High School

The comparison is expense per student vs. ACT scores in high schools.


Clayton High School: $19,000 per student; ACT = 26.1
Paseo Arts Academy (KCPS):$ 18,000 per student; ACT = 15
Center High School (Center): $18,000 per student; ACT = 15

Kauffman High School (KCPS): $16,000 per student; ACT = 23
East High School (KCPS): $15,000 per student; ACT = 14.1
Crossroads Charter HS (KCPS): $14,000 per student; ACT =
Park Hill South: $13,000 per student; ACT = 22.4
Lee's Summit: $11,000 per student; ACT = 22


https://stateofmissouri.app.box.com/s/1 ... 3737767611
What is this from?

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normalthings
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Re: The KCMO School District

Post by normalthings »

flyingember wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:34 am
That data set is interesting.

Look at the extremes and this clearly isn't comparing apples to apples in a way that you can blindly assume you can use it as a proxy to show how money spent determines school outcome.

Truman High School reports $5600 per student in spending.
On the other end Breckenridge High reports $30,000 per student for 31 students.

You have issues with economy of scale in the comparison. Fixed costs are assigned to a lot fewer students in some district

Fixed costs will differ. Look at opportunities like Google Fiber giving many KC schools free Internet. There could be other deals across the state, like a community might give their schools free security.

Costs may be split out differently. One district may assign a certain elementary-level cost to the specific school, another to the district where it's averaged across all schools.


And your use of ACT scores is also interesting, because scores aren't based on total correct answers but the overall curve nationally. If a school improves by 50% and the rest of the country improved by 30% your school's scores won't show a 50% increase even though the individual results dramatically improved.

You're not picking something that shows just Missouri results either since it's a national number.
Cost split did not appear to be averaged in any districts shown. Regardless, average cost per student in some districts exceed those of others. It’s well established that KCPS spends the same or more for much worse outcomes. What I found surprising was how the charter schools spend much less with far better outcomes. Obviously that has a lot of other issues at play.

Good point on the ACT. I selected it because Missouri requires or required every student to take it. National average is unlikely to change dramatically year to year. The average Missouri ACT was about a 20. Regardless, most of the KCPS schools including the expensive Paseo Academy are not creating proficient students.

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normalthings
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Re: The KCMO School District

Post by normalthings »

kboish wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:16 am
normalthings wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:58 pm
Let's take a look at school spending vs results in 2019. Costs per student from MO Dept of Education.


Elementary:

It is a bit harder to compare the cost per student of elementary vs outcomes.

KCPS's Holiday Elementary School spends a mind-blowing $30,000 per student per year. Compare that to the $10,000 per year that Academy Lafayette spends per student. KCPS's average per elementary appears to be around $14,000.

High School

The comparison is expense per student vs. ACT scores in high schools.


Clayton High School: $19,000 per student; ACT = 26.1
Paseo Arts Academy (KCPS):$ 18,000 per student; ACT = 15
Center High School (Center): $18,000 per student; ACT = 15

Kauffman High School (KCPS): $16,000 per student; ACT = 23
East High School (KCPS): $15,000 per student; ACT = 14.1
Crossroads Charter HS (KCPS): $14,000 per student; ACT =
Park Hill South: $13,000 per student; ACT = 22.4
Lee's Summit: $11,000 per student; ACT = 22


https://stateofmissouri.app.box.com/s/1 ... 3737767611
What is this from?
State of Missouri

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Re: The KCMO School District

Post by flyingember »

You do need adjust for other variables to compare test scores.

If your district is high on English as a second language students you're going to be hurt on the ACT where comprehension in English and Reading is two of the four areas. You're also going to spend a lot of money on special education programs to help students be successful

KC Schools also has a known problem where a huge percentage of students move regularly which hurts their outcome. I can't find the article but a lot of it related to unstable home environments, where a parent losing a job means the family loses their apartment.

Here's Seattle on the topic
https://education.seattlepi.com/negativ ... -2011.html

So it's entirely possible your information shows student demographics and in no way shows waste in education
Last edited by flyingember on Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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beautyfromashes
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Re: The KCMO School District

Post by beautyfromashes »

I think some would take this information as proof that money spent per student doesn’t produce outcomes directly. I think you need to break out where the money was spent. I’d say money spent directly in the classroom does produce results. Cutting administrative and building costs is the key for many older districts.

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Re: The KCMO School District

Post by flyingember »

beautyfromashes wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:11 pm
I think some would take this information as proof that money spent per student doesn’t produce outcomes directly. I think you need to break out where the money was spent. I’d say money spent directly in the classroom does produce results. Cutting administrative and building costs is the key for many older districts.
Kansas City got rid of 31 schools to reduce costs. So they did this without a doubt

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Re: The KCMO School District

Post by normalthings »

beautyfromashes wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:11 pm
I think some would take this information as proof that money spent per student doesn’t produce outcomes directly.
That is my thought. Money alone can not buy better outcomes. A more holistic approach may be needed.

The spreadsheet only breaks the cost down by district and building and by source. ACT vs the first language is interesting. The schools are well below average on the Missouri specific tests as well. I will try to see if there are breakouts by section.

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Re: The KCMO School District

Post by beautyfromashes »

I’m fine with the money spent by the district, it just needs to get to the classroom and students.

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FangKC
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Re: The KCMO School District

Post by FangKC »

I would suggest most of the disparity has nothing to do with what is spent in the classroom and more to do with what is happening at home for many of these students. The schools probably attempt to make up for some of the disadvantages of their students, but it's a hard battle when there are so many social forces at work against them.

Raw numbers rarely explain these issues.

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Re: The KCMO School District

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

FangKC wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:43 pm
I would suggest most of the disparity has nothing to do with what is spent in the classroom and more to do with what is happening at home for many of these students. The schools probably attempt to make up for some of the disadvantages of their students, but it's a hard battle when there are so many social forces at work against them.

Raw numbers rarely explain these issues.
So true. Not all students are created equally in that some face more problems than others. And "school" money can not overcome many of those problems since many of those social forces are outside the control of the school district. A student's home environment has much to do with a student's achievements. Sometimes an individual student can overcome those problems and excel on his/her own but that is the exception instead of the rule.

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FangKC
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Re: The KCMO School District

Post by FangKC »

Many students in the environments are programmed to give up early on because they perceive their parents, and extended families, have given up. It doesn't mean their families are made up of bad people. Some of it is systemic racism, unrelenting poverty, and so many barriers that make it hard to get their head above water.

Many students in school districts may get their only meal of the day at school. Older students might be working part-time jobs until 9 p.m. to contribute to their households. Some are living in motels, or even cars. There are just so many things happening to them on a daily basis that kids in wealthy suburban schools don't have to deal with.

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Re: The KCMO School District

Post by flyingember »

FangKC wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:47 pm
Many students in the environments are programmed to give up early on because they perceive their parents, and extended families, have given up. It doesn't mean their families are made up of bad people. Some of it is systemic racism, unrelenting poverty, and so many barriers that make it hard to get their head above water.

Many students in school districts may get their only meal of the day at school. Older students might be working part-time jobs until 9 p.m. to contribute to their households. Some are living in motels, or even cars. There are just so many things happening to them on a daily basis that kids in wealthy suburban schools don't have to deal with.
Of all that list, one thing that's extremely clear, is it's not a racial or money issue as the major factors. A family working multiple jobs, with no money and moving around tons will make the time if they care.

NKC HS is 40% white as a majority-minority. 64116, the core of the high school zone, is the poorest zip code in the northland, with the comparatively rich Briarcliff neighborhoods included to raise the numbers. The high school is apparently almost 2/3 reduced lunch.

And yet the graduation rate for the school is effectively tied with Liberty High School.

What we have is a minority community that clearly cares about education. Take a young minority population that's less white than the overall population and there isn't a crime problem because perceived opportunities reduce the crime rate.

I would place the failure and success of education firmly on the interest of the family to focus on education.

It's another place where the police department is setup wrong. They need a lot more focus on social work to break generational cycles. The crime rate will fall if more kids otherwise stuck in the cycle of crime and poverty see opportunity in education.

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Re: The KCMO School District

Post by normalthings »

Any reason why SW is getting boiler and MEP upgrades?

https://kcmsd.ionwave.net/PublicDetail. ... type=&org=

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Re: The KCMO School District

Post by herrfrank »

normalthings wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:52 pm
Any reason why SW is getting boiler and MEP upgrades?

https://kcmsd.ionwave.net/PublicDetail. ... type=&org=
I would be the first to celebrate if the KCMSD re-opens Southwest as a competitive school/ high school. But the history (since 1970) of the district points to sinister motives. Demolitions; demotions; rejections; failures.

Sorry, for my lifetime, I will never give trust to the KCMSD to provide even the most basic education for the students in its catchment. It is not a force for good.

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Re: The KCMO School District

Post by FangKC »

If they aren't planning to reopen the school, the only reason I can think they would be upgrading the building is part of some sale where the buyer is asking for those concessions before implementing their redevelopment plan.

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