Suburban vs Urban

[DaveKCMO]

you might want to check out "Comeback Cities"... it's a book about urban redevelopment. i think there was a section about the public spaces in the urban core being a necessity for democracy and public discourse (think the National Mall, or even Mill Creek Park). in short, kinda hard to protest in front of a strip mall when it's probably private property.

another benefit of urban areas is cultural diversity. while this isn't guaranteed, it's far more likely than in most suburban areas. since i live downtown and work deep in joco, there is definitely a "sameness" to the people i talk to who live in the 'burbs. you could argue that it's just a different "sameness" than those in the city, but it's an interesting point to ponder.

[Cyclops]

I've been following this thread for a while and have resisted the urge to partake because I get the obvious chore of defending the Blue Valley School District where 2 of my kids go to school. And I just love stepping into a debate with you guys when it comes to anything south of 435. Anyway, It's not hard to defend the BV schools because as far as public school systems go, they are pretty damn good. Check the rankings for yourself. Any way I'm not going to 'defend' anymore than that because quite frankly... what's the use.

Actually I'm laughing my ass off at you you young single guys who are overlooking one really important issue when you debate the public vs. the private school issue... the I'll never leave the city for a school issue....  And my personal favorite so far, the you'll be subject to all sorts of white christian upper class bubblheads if you go out there near those.... those... red state church goers.... aaarrgghh!

Anyway, in Grid's post he mentioned he moved to eastern Jackson County. And why did he do it? "Closer to the wife's family"...... BINGO..., give Cyclops another Sam Adams. (Yep once the kids go to bed, Daddy gets a beer).

You guys are overlooking that it takes a WIFE to have kids. ( If you are married skip to the next paragraph) And unless you order your soulmates from the Forever Urban Hottie Boutique, your life will change a whole bunch the day you say I do. Now, that's not to say you won't find someone that thinks exactly like you do. But from my experience most women have their OWN ideas about how they want to live their lives and especially how they raise kids. And if you don't find someone who thinks exactly like you do, you either compromise a whole bunch or you become one of the 50% no longer married.

Phase two of "boy is your life going to change" happens the day that little Urban dweller opens it's little eyes for the first time. Trust me on this one guys. I know you have a problem with any advice coming from my zip code, but trust me on this one little nugget of experience. YOU WILL CHANGE THE DAY YOU HOLD YOUR KID FOR THE FIRST TIME. And it's a real great change. And you can forget about stumbling home from the bars at 2:30 in the morning (Tosspot). More than likely you'll be doing laps in your loft with Tosspot Jr in your arms while mommy gets a couple hours of sleep. Priorities change. And if mommy's family happens to live outside the loop don't be surprised if you spend a lot of time out there... Or you move out there like Grid did because his wife wanted to be closer to her family. And when you get there don't be afraid of the public schools... They can be pretty damn good.

OK let me have it... I'll get another Sam....

[Tosspot]

in short, kinda hard to protest in front of a strip mall when it's probably private property.

Essentially that's what I've been saying for a long time too. There have actually been lawsuits over public protests being disallowed from indoor suburban shopping malls. Apparently the malls' corporate owners think political protests are bad for business, so any form of political demonstration is prohibited -- and the kicker of the whole story is that these malls basically serve as the de facto public realm of these suburban places. So effectively, the public realm in modern suburbia is not public at all -- it's a bastardized, privatized, and commoditized pseudo public realm chopped up into itty bitty little pieces and repackaged in a for-sale form. This aspect of American culture is not worth preserving.

[Tosspot]

Cyclops-- good post and I'm sure it's all true. You made me crack up there for a minute. Anyway, I do desparately hope that by the time I have children (and I do want kids) that either I will make enough of an income for private schooling, or that we have a better public school system OR there is a highly rated public school in our area. I still haven't given up though on my dream of raising a family in a downtown condo. I'm sure I could at least get away with that by the time the kids were teenagers.

[schugg]

I am now expecting a child,  me and my wife will stay in the city(midtown)and send our kids to private schools. lucky for us we can afford it. we have to give up our yearly two week trip to Maui though. but that's OK, we are excited.  don't know which schools yet.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Good posts GRID and Cyclops.  How so very true.  Wife and kids sure change the priorities in your life.  It is good to have a perspective of you two when it comes to comparing what a family wants and needs as compared to a young single guy (or gal).

I have said before more power to those who choose to live urban with a family but at least for now that is a minority. 

[aknowledgeableperson]

Is it a sound proposition to say that the cost of private schooling for KCMO residents is at least somewhat offset by the lower real estate prices that arise from a lousy public school district?

However, to compare housing prices, homes tend to cost more in many well kept urban areas.

[TagoMago]

"Why not the Northland where, as nota says, you can at least see the skyline from much of it and access the city much quicker?  Why not Lee's Summit where there are lakes and such, I mean if you are gonna live in the burbs, may as well live in burbs with a more vibrant outdoor and recreational scene.  I assume you work out there or your wife does?"
exactly right, both me and my wife work in JoCo and she grew up there and was going to KU at the time that we got married...so here I am...I have friends and family in lee's summit and the northland and would actually prefer both of those to Joco

Cyclops, I have no doubt that if/when my wife and I have a child my perspective will change.  This is a good point.  I also realize that the BV schools are excellent but would prefer something a little more diverse... I am hoping that if/when we have to consider school, we will be able to afford private school or will have a good option in KCMO...

[staubio]

Why would anyone marry someone that so fundamentally disagrees with them on what it means to have a rich lifestyle?  I've heard that "your wife is going to demand some things, like a big house in the suburbs" crap a ton of times.  Guess what?  That isn't my wife.  Anyone that really understands what living in the city is all about wouldn't just pack it up because the dominant wife wants you to.  There is a mostly false "American Dream" that many ascribe to, thinking that getting that suburban house is the pinnacle accomplishment.  I'll do things because they make sense, not because I feel like society expects it of me, and I'll have a wife that is smart enough to know the difference or I won't be married.

I'd prefer to marry someone that I can live happily with, where we can share a vibrant and exciting life in the city, thanks.

As far as the schools?  I'm not so sure I ever want to have children, but I realize this could change and is something that should be subject to your mate's influence (unlike your ideals).  While I think the supposed problems of the inner city schools is a symptom of the situation of the students as much or more than the school itself, it should be noted that urban KC has a collection of good elementary schools.  I would send my offspring to a private high school, be active in their education from the beginning to ensure that they go the most out of school and that school was augmented, and I would immerse my child in a diverse, active and culturally rich environment.  I dare say that child will be better for it than one from the oh-go-great Blue Valley district, from which I've seen plenty of students come out that need to get a clue on what life is all about.

Blaming your wife for your lot in life doesn't sound like true love to me.

[mean]

Why would anyone marry someone that so fundamentally disagrees with them on what it means to have a rich lifestyle?  I've heard that "your wife is going to demand some things, like a big house in the suburbs" crap a ton of times...I'd prefer to marry someone that I can live happily with, where we can share a vibrant and exciting life in the city, thanks.

Bingo. The concept that I would compromise my ideals and lifestyle for a woman is quaint and comical. As evidenced by the high cultural achievement Wife Swap, it's clear that many men are so desperate to get hitched that they'll settle for the first domineering wench that comes along, but that ain't me. Asking me to love a woman who would try to force me out into suburbia is like asking me to love a woman who tortures puppies. It is a logistical impossibility.

Of course, if I already had it preprogrammed in me that moving out there was the only thing to do, then sure. Or if that's what I really wanted deep down. It's not that it's an invalid choice, it's just an invalid choice for me, and the certainty with which people assume that those of us in the city are flighty ignorant kids who will eventually move out to OP is frustrating. Frankly, I'd rather move to a cabin in the woods.

[knucklehead]

My understanding is that only about 25 percent of the households in the metro area have school age kids.

That leaves plenty of people for whom the school thing is a non issue.

[bbqboy]

This is begining to sound like a Bud Light commercial.

[KCMax]

Why would anyone marry someone that so fundamentally disagrees with them on what it means to have a rich lifestyle?

That's usually not a very high priority question when choosing a mate. Usually its general compatability, physical attractiveness, etc. Now, many times you will share many of the same values, but I think you're being naive if you expect everyone to choose mates that are lockstep with them on every issue.

Anyway, my impression was that KCMO elementary schools actually aren't bad, especially in the nicer neighborhoods, and it was the high schools that really sucked. My fiancee and I would like to move to the Waldo/Brookside area for our next house, and we would consider sending our kids to KCMO elementary schools. As for HS, aren't there some decent charter schools?

If you do want a diversity and a good school district, I'd recommend the northern Shawnee Mission schools which have pretty good resources AND a much more diverse student population.

I'll also say that diversity means much more than skin color. I'm a white boy from the burbs and found Blue Valley High school to be very different from what I grew up with (much more rural!)

[TagoMago]

Damn...flame on..."dominant wife, wench, compromise ideals"  you guys are being a little harsh here...she was going to KU and couldn't afford the out of state tuition and it would add time to an already long commute... I moved out there with her always under the understanding that it was a temporary arrangement and we would move back asap...you guys are hardcore and I appreciate that, but your attack on me for moving to the burbs for a few years while my wife finishes college is unwarranted.

[shinatoo]

Try Raytown, it's like living in east KC but with good schools.

And they just promised the NAACP that they would hire a black person next year.

[mean]

Damn...flame on..."dominant wife, wench, compromise ideals"

My apologies, I wasn't trying to attack you. I was probably being a little overly defensive. Obviously people have reasons for doing what they do, and that's cool...but for my part I can't think of any reason that would be compelling enough to cause me to do what you did. But, that's just me. I realize that I am, at least for the moment, in the minority with regards to the ferocity and nature of my lifestyle ideology.

And I take a small amount of offense at the implication that once I "grow up" my ideology will change, because I obviously just haven't thought it through completely; or that my convictions are so weak that I would abandon them and run off to JoCo just as soon as I find a woman (since, obviously, all women want a big house in the suburbs, women are all the same) as has been sort-of implied by some--notably not you, but my original comments weren't directed at anybody in particular.

[Boognish]

You know, call me nuts, but I didn't really find the KCMO public high schools to be that bad. I obviously understand the trepidation, but it seems to be the one issue that everyone, including the hardcore urbanites, have "given up" on, insisting on waiting for improvement before they would even consider it.

But it's just like the city itself. It's made up of the people who use it. If the only people who use it are those who are forced to from desparate situations, it will be awful. You can't wait for it to get better, because we are the people who need to make it better. And if the people here, smart dedicated people whose children should achieve and be successful, take that success elsewhere, that's just another vacuum.

Anyway, not trying to be contrary, but something to think about.

[staubio]

Damn...flame on..."dominant wife, wench, compromise ideals"  you guys are being a little harsh here...she was going to KU and couldn't afford the out of state tuition and it would add time to an already long commute... I moved out there with her always under the understanding that it was a temporary arrangement and we would move back asap...you guys are hardcore and I appreciate that, but your attack on me for moving to the burbs for a few years while my wife finishes college is unwarranted.

It wasn't set up that way, so I apologize for sounding harsh, but I've heard it before.

MAX, I think the fact that lifestyle choices aren't considered in choosing a mate is part of our problem.  Don't blame your wife, though, if you didn't make it a prioirity.  I'm tired of that scapegoating.

For me, those things are an issue when choosing a mate, and I think they should be.

[Cyclops]

Wow! So much for having a little sense of humor. You guys can let the claws retract now. I assume all that venom is aimed at me.

If you can find someone exactly like you in every way to marry, have at it. And good luck finding that person. FOR ME... repeat FOR ME, I'd never want to be married to someone exactly like me. How boring. Marriage IS a compromise. That doesn't mean bad things. And I never said that compromise included being FORCED to move to the suburbs. For some people that may happen but that's their business. And for you to assume that people like me are wife whipped into a lifestyle, well, that's every bit as insulting as anything I ever typed. My wife is an amazing woman. You'd be lucky to find someone like her. As far as schools go I never said to move to attend the BV schools. I just said the were damn good schools. PERIOD.

I seriously hope that the public schools in KC improve. I pay enough taxes for those schools after all.. And, I hope you guys have plenty of options in the private sector if that's the direction you take .

Tosspot, thanks for laughing, which was the intent of my post. I'm confident that you will make all your dreams come true. It's very obvious to me that you live with a passion that will accommodate that. Plus you still have a sense of humor.

[mean]

If you can find someone exactly like you in every way to marry, have at it. And good luck finding that person. FOR ME... repeat FOR ME, I'd never want to be married to someone exactly like me. How boring. Marriage IS a compromise.

Any venom from me is generally reacting to statements like this. I concede that maybe (probably) it's just me being overly sensitive, but that comes off as pretty condescending. I'll not take it personally.

Anyway, I've been married for almost a decade so I think I know a thing or two about compromise. And I'll ignore the unfair implication that because my wife and I share a love of urban living that we are exactly the same in all ways.

And for you to assume that people like me are wife whipped into a lifestyle, well, that's every bit as insulting as anything I ever typed.

I never said that although I did posit as a possibility, along with several others.