I WANT URBAN!!!

[moderne]

  The River Quay was the same general area as the market, but more centered on Delaware.  The moniker was abandoned after the organized crime bombings in the late seventies.

[KCMax]

That's another way to spur develpment. Bring back the mob!

[staubio]

I think I'm better off than I was in the West Plaza.  All of those places that Chef indicated are a shorter walk than it was for me to get to Westport, so I have a big portfolio of options.  Of course, Westport is probably still better for someone like me, with its small pizza and sandwich shops open later and a couple of decent diners.  It is tough to live in the heart of Westport, though, if you don't want to live in a suburban craphole apartment.  Short of a house, there is only the one condo building I know of as an ownership option.

In the West Plaza, I could walk to the Plaza, Westport or 39th, but each was a little bit too far for occassional trips.  Now, I've got stuff immediately outside my door, but, like I said, it isn't open.  I can easily make the run to Westport or the Plaza with the much-improved transit situation (only the 51 hourly at night in West Plaza), but it is a seemingly long haul.

River Market needs to fill out between the bridges and it'll better feed the center.  I still am confident that it has the potential to be the first "urban village" we all dream about in KC, which is why I moved there.

[kcdcchef]

River Market needs to fill out between the bridges and it'll better feed the center.  I still am confident that it has the potential to be the first "urban village" we all dream about in KC, which is why I moved there.

i agree strongly. the way the city and region got behind it and forced the issue at first, was dead right out of the gate. the river market, or river quay, or whatever, does FAR better without everyone trying to make it work. i think that cordish being interested in a site, other businesses have been looking into it, i think that all of the talk about everyone trying to make a soho happen ( whatever you think that stands for, is fine by me ) or an east village, or whatever, is all so........years if not decades off. meanwhile, the river market, and the crossroads, are happening all on thier own.

[Tosspot]

We can rip out the damn highways demarcating these districts and in 30 years time everything would congeal into a cohesive urban form. The very term "urban highway" should be regarded as an oxymoron for any civilized individual.

[warwickland]

[kc-vino]

Stabio,

In regards to your comment.  I to live in the market and feel this frustration.  The Vietnamese restaurant in the market just happens to take one evening off a week, which is Tuesday.  You will be happy to hear that where Buddies Bar and Grill used to be located (across from Vivace) will be a new Mexican food restaurant that I heard compared to a smaller Manny's (nice and urban but not to pricey).  We are also adding the "Acorn" bar next to HOK headquarters.  This is from the founder of the Peanut bar empire.  Stuff is picking up in the market but yes it lacks synergy in many ways.  I've been their for a year now and it has improved a bit but still is horribly weak Sunday through Tuesday.  The market suffers from weekend exhaustion.  80% of the establishments do such disproportionate business on the weekends that they take their weekend on Sunday, Monday and sometimes Tuesday evening/day.  What can we do?  Promote the market to your friends.  Convincing your friends to come down their for dinner and drinks as opposed to Westport/Plaza is the difference in around 50-100 dollars for 5 friends.  A couple of other things......The Cup and Saucer is open for food until around 11 in the evening all evenings that the bar is open.  They just decided to shut up the actual dinning room after 2 p.m. everyday, but the kitchen is totally open until around 10.  And Cafe Al Dente is set to reopen in a couple of weeks to a month.  They are working on it everyday.  Things have gotten better and will only continue to.  We just need to market the area to our friends more.

[staubio]

Stabio,

In regards to your comment.  I to live in the market and feel this frustration.  The Vietnamese restaurant in the market just happens to take one evening off a week, which is Tuesday.  You will be happy to hear that where Buddies Bar and Grill used to be located (across from Vivace) will be a new Mexican food restaurant that I heard compared to a smaller Manny's (nice and urban but not to pricey).  We are also adding the "Acorn" bar next to HOK headquarters.  This is from the founder of the Peanut bar empire.  Stuff is picking up in the market but yes it lacks synergy in many ways.  I've been their for a year now and it has improved a bit but still is horribly weak Sunday through Tuesday.  The market suffers from weekend exhaustion.  80% of the establishments do such disproportionate business on the weekends that they take their weekend on Sunday, Monday and sometimes Tuesday evening/day.  What can we do?  Promote the market to your friends.  Convincing your friends to come down their for dinner and drinks as opposed to Westport/Plaza is the difference in around 50-100 dollars for 5 friends.  A couple of other things......The Cup and Saucer is open for food until around 11 in the evening all evenings that the bar is open.  They just decided to shut up the actual dinning room after 2 p.m. everyday, but the kitchen is totally open until around 10.  And Cafe Al Dente is set to reopen in a couple of weeks to a month.  They are working on it everyday.  Things have gotten better and will only continue to.  We just need to market the area to our friends more.

Thanks for your comments.  I agree with your assessment of the Market.  Another part of the problem, I think, is that, despite a decent and growing population of residents, everybody stays in at night.  There are a few people walking dogs or going for a run, but for the most part, the market rolls up the sidewalks at night.  Somebody needs to demystify the options there.

I was perplexed about Cup and Saucer.  I used to go there from time to time for dinner and when they starting closing the dining room at 2, I didn't know they kept serving over in the bar.  That bar tends to be oppressively smokey, though, so I'll have to scout it out on a slow night.

Is Kabal still serving food?  I used to go there for dinner and the food was decent, but the place has gotten weird and it seems like they took over the dining area with the "hip-hop" upstairs section.  I used to love that place, but I haven't been back lately and it seems as if it has sold out on its concept.  The last time I was there, there was a DJ upstairs where one would eat.

I spoke with the owner of the Wine Cellar, which is basically the only liquor option in the Market.  I encouraged her to stay open later.  She said she has begun staying open until 7 on Wednesday, which gives residents time to stop in after coming home.

Excellent news on the Mexican place.  I saw the work being done there.  That is exciting news.  If only we could infill some of the parking lots -- we'd be set.  5 Delaware was a great start.  Then, lets light up the actual City Market at night.

Anyway, thanks for your insights on the neighborhood.  Drop me a PM sometime and we'll get together for a beer.

[kc-vino]

You got it man,

Here is one other angle on all this matter.  I've always been personally perplexed that despite the development in the rivermarket in terms of businesses and residential you have not seen an equal amount of nightlife popping up.  Because their really has been an increase in units being filled up.  You have seen a little bit of an increase (Vivace, Arun, this up and coming Mexican restaurant) but that is somewhat it.  BUT we have lost Garretts market, the Cup has struggled with sales, Danny's cajun food was replaced by Harry's, and it seems like the brewery is always really slow.  I believe (and have had this confirmed by many long term rivermarket residence) that the market has turned more yuppie.  It makes sense.....the market used to be some of the cheapest urban rent that wasn't in a total shit area (west bottoms, east of troost, etc).  With this being the case more artists, single couples, and 20 year olds lived down their.  Recently, their has been a taming of the rivermarket in terms of nightlife with the transformation to a more professional working class.  The kind that is in bed by 10:30 because they want to rock their $40-100K a year job, starting each day at 8 A.M.  The results have been the market gaining in terms of people but loosing in terms of a bohemian neighborhood.  Similar to going from a Greenwich villiage to more of a Upper east side.  The same thing has happened in my home town of San Francisco.....the city is SO expensive that you have to be upper class to live there.  With this scenario existing, tons of the true nightlife and youthful culture has gone over to Oakland where you can live and hang out for about 1/3 the cost. 

And quickly about Kabals.  Eric King the owner of Kabals is a good friend of mine and I totally love what they are doing over their and..... business is still consistently good.  They do still serve dinner.  The hip hop nights are now moved to the basement.  Thanksgiving night will offer an incredible DJ from Club Ibiza.  Lastly in talking with Eric about the market he stated that one of the biggest anomalies is how little of the traffic at Kabals is local (directly from the market).  Saying that most of the nights patrons come from the Crossroads, midtown, plaza, etc.  This again assures my notion that the market might be more concentrated on the business elite or the artist but maybe not much in between.  I think the crossroads is starting to capture more of the 20-30s age bracket that goes out frequently but has money.  Who knows   8)   

[staubio]

You got it man,

Here is one other angle on all this matter.  I've always been personally perplexed that despite the development in the rivermarket in terms of businesses and residential you have not seen an equal amount of nightlife popping up.  Because their really has been an increase in units being filled up.  You have seen a little bit of an increase (Vivace, Arun, this up and coming Mexican restaurant) but that is somewhat it.  BUT we have lost Garretts market, the Cup has struggled with sales, Danny's cajun food was replaced by Harry's, and it seems like the brewery is always really slow.  I believe (and have had this confirmed by many long term rivermarket residence) that the market has turned more yuppie.  It makes sense.....the market used to be some of the cheapest urban rent that wasn't in a total shit area (west bottoms, east of troost, etc).  With this being the case more artists, single couples, and 20 year olds lived down their.  Recently, their has been a taming of the rivermarket in terms of nightlife with the transformation to a more professional working class.  The kind that is in bed by 10:30 because they want to rock their $40-100K a year job, starting each day at 8 A.M.  The results have been the market gaining in terms of people but loosing in terms of a bohemian neighborhood.  Similar to going from a Greenwich villiage to more of a Upper east side.  The same thing has happened in my home town of San Francisco.....the city is SO expensive that you have to be upper class to live there.  With this scenario existing, tons of the true nightlife and youthful culture has gone over to Oakland where you can live and hang out for about 1/3 the cost. 

And quickly about Kabals.  Eric King the owner of Kabals is a good friend of mine and I totally love what they are doing over their and..... business is still consistently good.  They do still serve dinner.  The hip hop nights are now moved to the basement.  Thanksgiving night will offer an incredible DJ from Club Ibiza.  Lastly in talking with Eric about the market he stated that one of the biggest anomalies is how little of the traffic at Kabals is local (directly from the market).  Saying that most of the nights patrons come from the Crossroads, midtown, plaza, etc.  This again assures my notion that the market might be more concentrated on the business elite or the artist but maybe not much in between.  I think the crossroads is starting to capture more of the 20-30s age bracket that goes out frequently but has money.  Who knows   

I totally agree with this assessment, which is why I'm excited about places like Cold Storage coming online with a slew of rentals.  A lot of people don't understand why having a strong rental crowd in my neighborhood is appealing to me, but they don't understand that renters are more likely to be young, energetic and out and about supporting neighborhood business.  Of course, they might just be driving to Westport, who knows, but the more economic diversity, the better.  Right now, the Market is probably at an all time low in economic diversity, with the conversion of existing rentals into condos and the construction of new high-end stuff.  Cold Storage needs to hurry up and get online to help balance out the mix again. 

[kcdcchef]

I totally agree with this assessment, which is why I'm excited about places like Cold Storage coming online with a slew of rentals.  A lot of people don't understand why having a strong rental crowd in my neighborhood is appealing to me, but they don't understand that renters are more likely to be young, energetic and out and about supporting neighborhood business.  Of course, they might just be driving to Westport, who knows, but the more economic diversity, the better.  Right now, the Market is probably at an all time low in economic diversity, with the conversion of existing rentals into condos and the construction of new high-end stuff.  Cold Storage needs to hurry up and get online to help balance out the mix again. 

and too the more renters you get, the more services you get. with the demorgraphic growing of younger dinks in that hood, you get a more eclectic mix of business too.

[skim82]

I agree that Kabal is a more late 20's mid 30's crowd with peeps that have a little money to spend...  Last time I was there I didn't see a whole bunch of early 20's peeps like myself. 

[kc-vino]

I recently went to Chicago and visited the area just west of Navy pier (I believe).  This area was still cool but it was so ritzy and so rich that the services were not out on the street.  Likewise, I witnessed what was the opposite in areas around Lincoln Park and areas around Wrigley Field.  Why is this?  that areas with more rental units tend to attract more street retail/services?  Is it because those in condos are more likely to have all the amenities in house rather than having to go to the street for laundry, bar, market, etc.  It might be that those in a condo have the money to have all the in house features that those in a rental can't even approach typically.

[staubio]

I recently went to Chicago and visited the area just west of Navy pier (I believe).  This area was still cool but it was so ritzy and so rich that the services were not out on the street.  Likewise, I witnessed what was the opposite in areas around Lincoln Park and areas around Wrigley Field.  Why is this?  that areas with more rental units tend to attract more street retail/services?  Is it because those in condos are more likely to have all the amenities in house rather than having to go to the street for laundry, bar, market, etc.  It might be that those in a condo have the money to have all the in house features that those in a rental can't even approach typically.

What perplexes me about this is why people even bother to locate in the city in the first place.  If they live such an insular life, might as well just build a tower in Bashor, KS for cheaper.  Part of urban living is the "third place" element -- the neighborhood as your living room.  Spending the spare time in the condo pool instead of in the neighborhood will ensure that the vibrancy we're all banking on never comes.

[ike_the_dog]

... BUT we have lost Garretts market, the Cup has struggled with sales, Danny's cajun food was replaced by Harry's, and it seems like the brewery is always really slow.  I believe (and have had this confirmed by many long term rivermarket residence) that the market has turned more yuppie.

There are reasons that all of these places disappeared, mostly having to do with bad business decisions.

*Garrett's had more business than they could handle in their origina space on Delaware, it was the move to 2nd street that killed them (great space, but in a shitty location that made it impossible for people to find it if they didn't know where it was).

*Danny's is still going strong--it's on main around 16th street--you're thinking of Big Daddy's, which fell apart when the ownership group split apart.

*The brewery used to be packed--remember the pool hall in the back? They shot themselves inthe foot when they pulled all of the pool tables and replaced them with a $100,000.00 television which didn't draw any business because it was too big to watch.

*The biggest loss in terms of impact on the nightlife was club 427 -- it packed them in, and overflow traffic also fed into the brewery and Winslow's. Club 427 was also a vicim of really bad ownership decision-making.

I used to live in the market, and I have kept my offices here for over 10 years--the place is much LESS "yuppie" than is ever has been. Besdies, "yuppies" are good for neighborhoods--they have money to spend, and this in turn generates opportunities for new businesses.

[kc-vino]

Was Club 427 busy?  By the same token Minsky's is always somewhat consistent in terms of people streaming in and out.  Danny's actually shut I believe on 16th and main, only to reopen soon as more of a bar/nightclub.  Again, I believe that the amount of people living in the market has gone up but the development in terms of restaurants, bars and overall services has not increased proportionally.......how do we explain this? 
I will totally agree that yuppies bring money, but as Stabio pointed out their needs to be a mix for an eclectic neighborhood.  I have a friend who DJs at places like Slamerz on Main and he says it can be a drag because you get the cool young late night crowd but they buy 2 pats blue ribbon for a $1.50 each, don't tip, come wasted, and stay from 11-3 in the morning.  This crowd just mentioned brings the cool, yet the yuppies also bring the cool (although possibly more limited by work restriction) but they bring the backbone in terms of financial support.  To me that is the real difference in why many clubs in this town make it or not.  The ones who do tap into the Plaza wealth (either by being on the Plaza or attracting that crowd) or that overall bracket of individuals in their 20-30s seem to survive.  Clubs that struggle/close (Club Chakra, Club evolution, Trago, Life, club 151, etc) always fall victim to this variable.  Obviously, they are many more bullets (no pun intended) that play a role in clubs not making it that are intertwined like the shady crowd (evolution, Chakra, Trago, 151), the area that either builds or erodes peoples confort level in visiting the location (Trago, Life Chakra, 151), what crowd it attracts and the trendiness that shortly becomes associated with the establishment (evolution), a detrimental event usually associated with crime (Life, 151 ) and management (evolution). This is what Kabals has managed to build up, a large following of both young and cool but also those who have the money to drop on the big DJs.  Likewise, if you ever meet the owners of Kabals and actually check out the special events that go out during the work week you'd probably be impressed with the diversity and urban element coming from the club.  They host numerous fund raisers, have a different venue almost every night of the week, they are really pushing Kabals as a restaurant also which helps the rivermarket have more services, they even buy a wide majority of their vegetables from a vendor in the market for about 3 months out of the year during the summer.
Slight tangent sorry!  But what about services in the market?

[ike_the_dog]

Was Club 427 busy? 

Yes, especially on weekends -- it was a totally unique mix of live music and high-end dining. Over the course of the evening, it would gradually morph from restaurant into a nightclub--it was a gold mine for a while.

By the same token Minsky's is always somewhat consistent in terms of people streaming in and out. 

Minsky's is different, 427 was a destination from all over the metro.

Danny's actually shut I believe on 16th and main, only to reopen soon as more of a bar/nightclub.  Again, I believe that the amount of people living in the market has gone up but the development in terms of restaurants, bars and overall services has not increased proportionally.......how do we explain this? 
I will totally agree that yuppies bring money, but as Stabio pointed out their needs to be a mix for an eclectic neighborhood.  I have a friend who DJs at places like Slamerz on Main and he says it can be a drag because you get the cool young late night crowd but they buy 2 pats blue ribbon for a $1.50 each, don't tip, come wasted, and stay from 11-3 in the morning.  This crowd just mentioned brings the cool, yet the yuppies also bring the cool (although possibly more limited by work restriction) but they bring the backbone in terms of financial support.  To me that is the real difference in why many clubs in this town make it or not.  The ones who do tap into the Plaza wealth (either by being on the Plaza or attracting that crowd) or that overall bracket of individuals in their 20-30s seem to survive.  Clubs that struggle/close (Club Chakra, Club evolution, Trago, Life, club 151, etc) always fall victim to this variable.  Obviously, they are many more bullets (no pun intended) that play a role in clubs not making it that are intertwined like the shady crowd (evolution, Chakra, Trago, 151), the area that either builds or erodes peoples confort level in visiting the location (Trago, Life Chakra, 151), what crowd it attracts and the trendiness that shortly becomes associated with the establishment (evolution), a detrimental event usually associated with crime (Life, 151 ) and management (evolution). This is what Kabals has managed to build up, a large following of both young and cool but also those who have the money to drop on the big DJs.  Likewise, if you ever meet the owners of Kabals and actually check out the special events that go out during the work week you'd probably be impressed with the diversity and urban element coming from the club.  They host numerous fund raisers, have a different venue almost every night of the week, they are really pushing Kabals as a restaurant also which helps the rivermarket have more services, they even buy a wide majority of their vegetables from a vendor in the market for about 3 months out of the year during the summer.
Slight tangent sorry!  But what about services in the market?

It doesn't happen overnight, but it is happening, and has been happening for the past 5-10 years. There are probably double the number of places to buy a meal in the market now than there was 5 years ago, and that number was double over the preceding 5 years. As the population grows and stabilizes, the services will continue to improve. Just because a few restaurants made poor managerial decisions doesn't mean that the area is dying before it really gets going.