KCRag Forum

When visiting New Orleans I fell in love with their trolley system that ran through the garden district and imagined one for KC. This is completely abstract I came up with so feel free to shoot down. Not sure what kind of appeal it would have to normal everyday KC residents so it might be a complete waste of funds but how about a trolley system that took this type of route.

Start at about 47th & Rockhill Rd. To the south I believe there is a blank area that could be used as a maintenance facility. Go west down 47th through the plaza over to Belleview and south to Ward Parkway. Follow Ward Parkway all the way down to 75th street (through the median) east on 75th to Wornall, north on Wornall until 63rd, turn back west connect back with Ward Parkway head north to Madison/Roanoke turn north and then back down 47th.

thoughts?

I think we definitely could use some trolleys. I'd love to see trollies or street cars running all over the core. Very charming and very attractive to visitors...

Is there a trolley system in the Crossroads?

Sonfire wrote:Is there a trolley system in the Crossroads?

So far as I know, there's a trolley that goes to-and-fro on First Fridays in the Crossroads, though I don't believe it operates at any other time (could be wrong though).

yeah, i think the crossroads neighborhood association gets it to run rounds on first fridays only. It would be cool to have trolleys running throughout the RCP area. Are trolleys the same price as light rail? Are they the same thing as lrt?

there is a study going on right now for a downtown trolley system...not sure if it has legs or not.

Trolleys are nothing like LRT...not nearly as fast or effecient...more charming, I believe they do cost less.

I think we're talking about two different things. The New Orleans trolley runs on rails - sometimes on the street, sometimes in a medium or separate area. The Crossroads trolley is a bus that looks like a trolley car.

There's no trolly-wire w/ KC's "trollies", 'cause they have Goodyear tires.

SOOOOOO, back to the original post....comments on my trolley plan?

KCPowercat wrote:SOOOOOO, back to the original post....comments on my trolley plan?

Sounds good to me, but it should be part of a larger systems of similar routes.

I'd love a trolley system...but good luck running it down Ward Pkwy. Though it would be a nice Sunday ride, the residents wouldn't have it and the ridership isn't there for that path. Wornall and 75th St make sense, but I think it might be interesting to find out how this would float in old Johnson County. Go past Ward Pkwy on 75th St and send it across State Line, then run it down Mission Road to Shawnee Mission pkwy/Johnson Dr and back to the Plaza. This loop may be too big but there are some natural stops at the prarie village shopping center and the shops on Johnson Dr.

Would it be too much to ask to start with a small trolley loop in the plaza only? Since the plaza area has the crowds of people. Expansion can come later, but lets build something right now.

I'd like to see a trolley line from City Market to the Plaza on Main or Boadway first.

trolley lines can't be too long. They don't have the speed to really transfer commuters in long distances.

This plan would hook up with the MAX proposed system at 47th & Main. Which would be a faster link to downtown which could also have it's own trolley loop but I didn't think about how that one would go yet.

Like JB said, I was wondering how ward parkway people would accept it. They have such a wide median there that would be perfect for it but I could see the "old money" rebuffing this in a second.

DMW...I admire your desire but why just build something to build it now?

KCP: I have once envisioned/dreamt of that exact plan and various variations. No kidding. I love trolley's. Portland's system (which is amazing) "only" cost around 60 million [full funding breakdown on web site portlandstreetcar.org] and i'm sure it could be done even cheaper. Talking to students from portland at my school, I have heard nothing but positives. The density of the plaza area is perfect for a trolley connector.

Trolleys are also, above all, an important part of KC's history. We need to embrace them.

kcteen

Much like Kcteen said, I have thought about this very idea several times in some shape or form.

I really like the project in Portland, however, I think there is a difference between street cars and the "trolleys" KCP is talking about. Our system couldn't be as practical. More of an experience which connected you to other major bus lines. With the exception of 75th and 63rd streets, all that KCP listed could be done either on medians, or out of the way of car traffic. I believe the street cars in Portland will operate on the street with cars. Also, I think mabey KCP was envisioning, or at least I was, a more charming, old world route. Very similiar to those in New Orleans.

Obviously I am not an expert on the subject, but it seems like a trolley system in KC would be perfect. From what I read, when the line previously existed, it was one of the more popular if not the most popular mode of transportation in the city. And, many people blame the lines demise on a GM conspiracy seen here:

http://www.lovearth.net/gmdeliberatelydestroyed.htm

Much of the track is still in place I believe, only paved over in certain areas. It seems like it could still be used. A system such as the one in portland would be incredibly more complicated and expensive to plan, IMO. Mainly, due to traffic. And, it is only costing 60 million! How much did we just give the ATA to add a couple extra bus routes?! At the very least why not bring back Trolleys to the Trolley Track Trail. While I love the trail for biking/walking/jogging, I think charming trolley cars would only add to the trails appeal, and they could easily co-exist. How much could a couple dozen street cars, signage, and planning cost? I think one line, either bringing back the TTT, or one as KCP listed couldn't cost more than $30 million. Think of the impact it could have on the city!

Also, the star published a great book a few years back telling the history of KC's infamous trolley system. You can easily find it at any library, titled something along the lines of "Kansas City Street Cars."??? Great pictures and history!

there was a big scandal in the 50's or 60's exposing the GM thing (by which time it was already too late, and didn't matter). I hear there's a pretty good book that goes into the whole thing.....

yeah, i agree, trolleys would be awesome in the core. I can totally see trolleys cruising down Main and/or Broadway. However, interms of capacity and traffic, i don't know how much better trolleys would be than the BRT (other than the obvious image boost).

I would say send a line right down the middle lane in either side of Ward Parkway, from ~75th Street to the Plaza, and then on down Broadway or Main to the loop/rivermarket. It seems like this would be relatively cheap, practical, and certainly very charming. The cars wouldn;t have to be "old fashioned" NOLA style trolleys, either, they could be newer, enclosed streetcars (although the new NOLA Canal line cars are air conditioned). Hmm, wishful thinking for the time being but I think we'll see some form of rail in the none-too-distant future, it just probably won't be as cute and attractive as a Country Club/Plaza/Downtown trolley line.

I feel trolleys wouldn't serve the mass transit needs down broadway or main. they can't have the capacity of our current bus system and wouldn't be as fast. I might be wrong though.

I was just reading about the planned streetcar line that is going to be put into place in St. Louis' Delmar Loop (it's a little over 2 miles in length and basically follows the same route back and forth (as opposed to being a larger circle or something)). It'll cost somewhere in between 20 and 32 million dollars, and the way they are raising money is actually pretty interesting (and seems like it would be very feasible here in KC):

A grant application has been made to the federal government for funding under the TEA-21 act. That is the funding source for most federal transportation projects across the U.S.A. It is fully expected that the grant will be approved as written. The federal share, under rules adapted by the Bush Administration last year requires a 50% match with local money. Until then the federal share was 80% and the local share 20%. Local money could come from a number of sources, the most likely is large corporations purchasing naming rights for various parts of the project. This is how some other cities have successfully raised their local share. For instance, in Tampa, Florida, the new streetcar line is named the TECO Trolley with TECO being the local electric company which paid several million dollars for the naming rights. Other companies have paid to name individual streetcars in the fleet, stations and other features. Citizens have even purchased small bronze plaques to dedicate seats inside of the cars. It is possible that local governments, like University City and St. Louis may contribute small amounts, but no such appropriations have yet occurred. Various other methods of raising the money are being considered.

They mention in another place that the beauty of having a small starter trolley line is that hopefully it's success will encourage other neighborhoods to develop similar lines (in St. Louis metrolink provides the larger transportation backbone, here in KC we can use the proposed BRT lines as that backbone).

It seems the only neighborhoods dense enough that they could successfully handle/necessitate a streetcar line right now (other than downtown neighborhoods) would be the Plaza and Westport. It would be interesting to see a line going up Broadway from the Plaza and going west on 39th. Touristy yes, but if integrated into BRT could really help get people in a mass transit frame of mind. If anything a small line connecting the rivermarket cbd and unionstation would be very feasible (that's about a 2 mile stretch right?)