Part of the reason the KCATA is a failure...

KCK · Post by **KCK** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:22 am

I completely agree.

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:53 am

I'm not sure what you mean.

scooterj · Post by **scooterj** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:03 am

That the route map is a completely unreadable mess that looks more complicated than most circuit diagrams?

Post by **dangerboy** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:58 am

I've seen worse in bigger cities.

Critical_Mass · Post by **Critical_Mass** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:34 pm

I've also seen much better in bigger cities

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:40 pm

ok I still don't get it, what's the problem?

Post by **staubio** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:49 pm

Come on now, you can't be serious. Guess what? A ton of bus lines are going to pass through the heart of the loop. Would you rather transfer at the edge of downtown to the "bus that goes through downtown" so you don't need all of those pesky lines to deal with?

You have to know which bus you want. Then you have to catch that bus on one of two or three streets that are well-served by transit. While I agree that the bus is a little overaccomodating, with a major bus stop a block from the transit plaza and such, but blaming the failure of the system on a crowded network of routes heading through downtown? Seriously?

You can use the trip planner. You can reference maps of individual routes. You can call their number and they'll tell you where to go.

How would you suggest the busses change downtown so that the ATA is suddenly successful?

scooterj · Post by **scooterj** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:56 pm

staubio wrote:You have to know which bus you want. Then you have to catch that bus on one of two or three streets that are well-served by transit.

That right there is the heart of the matter as to why so many people don't ride the bus. You either know the system or you don't, and it's not accomodating at all for those who don't know it but would be willing to try.

Post by **staubio** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:42 pm

scooterj wrote:
staubio wrote:You have to know which bus you want. Then you have to catch that bus on one of two or three streets that are well-served by transit.
That right there is the heart of the matter as to why so many people don't ride the bus. You either know the system or you don't, and it's not accomodating at all for those who don't know it but would be willing to try.

Find where you are going on the map, then find the bus route that serves it. Follow the little line to see where it goes. Lots of busses go downtown. Are you wanting to make sense of taking the bus a few blocks through downtown or what? If you are coming from the Plaza, you can easily see which routes serve it. They all end up downtown. Once you are downtown, it doesn't much matter where the bus goes down to the block level. If you are trying to catch one, the bus stops have route numbers on them.

What about the trip planner or the call center?

What a lame cop-out. It isn't that hard, folks.

Look inside the loop in Chicago. Look. Lots of routes. No wonder Chicago transit is such a failure!

http://www.transitchicago.com/maps/maps/F2004D.html

St. Louis?

Maybe Kansas Citians just aren't trying.

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:46 pm

the trip planner really helps...if too many routes together is the issue that is being brought up, I think the trip planner pretty much negates that.

Also the bus stops have which routes stop there now, so if you want to ride, you can see which is closest to your house and plan it out on the web or over the phone.

mass transit needs central switching points such as this and having much of the routes run downtown is helpful as it is the highest concentration of jobs and would serve the greatest number of people.

WoodDraw · Post by **WoodDraw** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:49 pm

At least St. Louis used colors that are obviously different. How many different shades of red/pink can you use on a map?

Not that I'm complaining though. As staubio said, you are going to have a ton of routes and there isn't really a way to make it look pretty.

eliphar17 · Post by **eliphar17** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:31 pm

Actually, I think the Chicago map highlights pretty well what tk is trying to say. The major difference between the two maps (with the bus lines) is that Kansas City's map has gone to great lengths to show each individual route, thus rendering the whole map rather useless as a tool to find out where you're going. Chicago's map, on the other hand, just displays the route numbers on the streets they use, making it easy to see where they actually go. On Kansas City's map, you can see pretty easily that the bus routes themselves seem to define where the streets are. On Chicago's map, it's the other way around. Also, if I were in charge of making this map, I would use the colors to indicate where the route goes from downtown, i.e. all Plaza routes are red, all routes to the East Side are yellow, all routes south of 75th are blue, all routes to Platte County are green, etc. I suspect that the colors as they are now don't mean anything, though I honestly have zero experience with the bus system and I don't know that for sure.

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:35 pm

KCATA has about 1,000,059 more problems than how their maps are laid out on their website. Just use the trip planner.

eliphar17 · Post by **eliphar17** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:37 pm

staubio wrote:Come on now, you can't be serious. Guess what? A ton of bus lines are going to pass through the heart of the loop. Would you rather transfer at the edge of downtown to the "bus that goes through downtown" so you don't need all of those pesky lines to deal with?

...blaming the failure of the system on a crowded network of routes heading through downtown? Seriously?

How would you suggest the busses change downtown so that the ATA is suddenly successful?

right back. tk was NOT trying to say the problem is too many buses downtown. The problem is how to tell people about the routes, and the way KCATA chose is not very good.

Post by **chrizow** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:45 pm

KCPowercat wrote:KCATA has about 1,000,059 more problems than how their maps are laid out on their website. Just use the trip planner.

i dunno, KCP...last i counted it was 1,000,060.

but yeah, that map is a clusterf*ck. i think that any transit map is sort of confusing unless you've become somewhat familiar with it. the trip planner seems to lessen the difficulty.

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:17 pm

This is a good discussion and thanks for the replies...

To clarify, I was implying that the dowtown route map given by the KCATA is unreadable to anyone who isn't an avid KCATAer. The eTrip Planner is great, but it does not spatially show where you are going and only gives you instructions rather than visuals. I've seen many people boggled by the route maps for Lawrence's T system and we only have 9 bus routes! I am a somewhat educated person who can read maps and who uses transit frequently and there is no possible way a normal person who doesn't use mass transit would have the time or wearwithall to stand there and decipher this complete mess of lines (remember that many of these buses go outside the downtown route map). Use an isolated map for each bus line if you have to...jeez... My point is the first step in reforming our transit system is making more user-friendly-- that mess is anything, but user-friendly.

Also, people in Chicago, Boston, NYC, etc. have systems because of demand for use while KC must build a system that creates demand for use.

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:33 pm

These are some of my favorite parts zoomed in on...

And presenting how MetroTransit of the Twin Cities presented their downtown transit maps...which one would you know how to use?

tat2kc · Post by **tat2kc** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:38 pm

wow. thats absolutely ridiculous. Add to that the idiotic placement of stops, and you have a huge mess. When the 101 leaves the transit plaza at 10th and Main, the first stop is 1/2 block south, at Petticoat Lane, and the second stop is just around the corner on 11th going west. Who the hell puts 3 stops within one block?

Critical_Mass · Post by **Critical_Mass** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:28 pm

and a trip planner is only useful for those who have internet connections...
and to obtain a physical map (route map, not system), you have to get on a bus...(correct me if I'm wrong).