Villages of Shoal Creek Valley

[DanCa]

The link below shows what I'm buying at Stapleton in Denver except I'll have a corner lot with wrap-around porch and brick siding.  For two people, I didn't want wasted space like a formal living room.  The great room, kitchen and dining areas are all open so it has a modern feel to the layout but we'll have cherry hardwood floors throughout (that was an upgrade), the standard interior woodwork/trim is much wider than standard suburban and is similar to what you'd find in a historic home, it has 9' ceilings which yes, will probably cost a bit more for heating and cooling but gives a sense of spaciousness, we're getting solid panel interior doors and we get triple-pane windows and even the basement walls are insulated.  It's not a historic home but also won't be a money pit and expensive to heat.  For me it's a compromise plus we'll be 3 blocks from a town center with stores and restaurants I can walk to as well as several parks and trails within 3 or 4 blocks from the house.  I don't see anything wrong with returning to traditional American architecture and style rather than the past 50 years of bland suburban architecture. 

http://stapletondenver.com/builders/bui ... buildID=98

[chrizow]

that is great, DanCa!  that is how new urbanism should be done.  SCV is fine for a Northland subdivision, but these sorts of things should be urban infill (beacon hill, cough-cough). 

[DanCa]

From what I've seen, this is probably the best New Urbanism development going on right now because it's so big and is actually surrounded by urban areas.  I'll be able to walk just a couple blocks south on my street and be in an established neighborhood.

I noticed that we could have bought more house at a cheaper price If we bought far out in the 'burbs - many out by DIA - but that just wasn't what we wanted.  Location is very important and I wanted a small yard that wouldn't take more than 15 minutes to mow.  The house is 6 miles from the center of downtown and I'd say within 15 minutes or everything in central Denver. 

Beacon Hill would be perfect for this.  Hopefully SCV will be so popular that builders will start looking for more urban locations for more New Urbanism projects.  Denver just happened to have a unique situation with an urban airport being removed.  They also did similar N.U. projects at the old Elitch's amusement park site on the west side as well as at one or two closed military bases that weren't too far out.

[Thrillcekr]

From what I've seen, this is probably the best New Urbanism development going on right now because it's so big and is actually surrounded by urban areas.  I'll be able to walk just a couple blocks south on my street and be in an established neighborhood.

I noticed that we could have bought more house at a cheaper price If we bought far out in the 'burbs - many out by DIA - but that just wasn't what we wanted.  Location is very important and I wanted a small yard that wouldn't take more than 15 minutes to mow.  The house is 6 miles from the center of downtown and I'd say within 15 minutes or everything in central Denver. 

Beacon Hill would be perfect for this.  Hopefully SCV will be so popular that builders will start looking for more urban locations for more New Urbanism projects.  Denver just happened to have a unique situation with an urban airport being removed.  They also did similar N.U. projects at the old Elitch's amusement park site on the west side as well as at one or two closed military bases that weren't too far out.

That's exactly why I really like how it turned out in NKC with Northgate.  It looks fairly natural there because the community was composed of those sorts of houses already.

[DanCa]

Isn't that area nice and hilly as well?

[Tosspot]

I particularly like New Urbanist projects when built in actual URBAN areas, so it sounds like Stapleton will work out well, along with NKC.

Too often, New Urbanism is relegated to outlying suburban areas, which in effect makes it "New Suburbanism," but only in the vernacular.

I want New Urbanist INFILL all along Westport Road!

[Thrillcekr]

Isn't that area nice and hilly as well?

Northgate is in a flat area but it's very urban looking.  All the houses close together and that sort of thing.  Close to a very nice park and around the corner from local shopping.  The skyline of KC is right there in your face since downtown is only about a mile or two south.  Right behind Northgate on the north side it starts getting hilly and loads of trees.  Maybe somebody would be nice enough to post a few pictures for you if anyone has any.

[GRID]

I particularly like New Urbanist projects when built in actual URBAN areas, so it sounds like Stapleton will work out well, along with NKC.

Too often, New Urbanism is relegated to outlying suburban areas, which in effect makes it "New Suburbanism," but only in the vernacular.

I want New Urbanist INFILL all along Westport Road!

Be careful what you wish for toss.

[nota]

From what I've seen, this is probably the best New Urbanism development going on right now because it's so big and is actually surrounded by urban areas.  I'll be able to walk just a couple blocks south on my street and be in an established neighborhood.

I noticed that we could have bought more house at a cheaper price If we bought far out in the 'burbs - many out by DIA - but that just wasn't what we wanted.  Location is very important and I wanted a small yard that wouldn't take more than 15 minutes to mow.  The house is 6 miles from the center of downtown and I'd say within 15 minutes or everything in central Denver. 
Beacon Hill would be perfect for this.  Hopefully SCV will be so popular that builders will start looking for more urban locations for more New Urbanism projects.  Denver just happened to have a unique situation with an urban airport being removed.  They also did similar N.U. projects at the old Elitch's amusement park site on the west side as well as at one or two closed military bases that weren't too far out.

You sound like an intelligent homebuyer. Buying for your lifestyle and needs.

[nota]

I was in Liberty yesterday and drove through the area. There are a couple more houses started, some duplexes (I think 3 or 4) and the school is staked out and a tiny bit of site work is done, but otherwise the whole place is just laying there much like it was back in the fall when I was first there. Only a couple of occupied homes.

By contrast, in some of the newer subdivisions in that area, I saw moving vans, houses in all stages of construction, kids playing, mothers walking, etc.

If I were to buy in the Villages, I'd want an ironclad timetable for the proposed amenities. Otherwise it would be much like the Ballpark Village in STL. A dream of what "might be."

[zlohban]

Look again for the new school, it is almost completed and stands NW of the present homes.

[zlohban]

Also a "Fly-Over" bridge over I-35 is being built from the SCV home area to Liberty for better access to the new South Valley Middle School and Jr. High buildings.  This will make both parents and bus drivers very happy keeping both away from M152.

[nota]

Look again for the new school, it is almost completed and stands NW of the present homes.

I'll be back in Liberty later this week and I'll check it out again. I've eaten my words before.

[DanCa]

You sound like an intelligent homebuyer. Buying for your lifestyle and needs.

Thanks!  A lot of consideration went into this since it's such a big move.  We've been in Orange County for almost ten years but the timing was right and the pros of moving outweighed the cons of living in an overpriced, congested area.

I imagine the New Urbanism thing isn't for everyone and that's why it's good to have many housing options in cities.  Having kids would make larger, suburban lots more attractive but a small, urban lot will fit our lifestyle and accommodate our small dog.  I'm curious to see what type of neighbors we have a Stapleton.  I know they've built a new school there so I don't think most people moving in are without kids. 

[nota]

Thanks!  A lot of consideration went into this since it's such a big move.  We've been in Orange County for almost ten years but the timing was right and the pros of moving outweighed the cons of living in an overpriced, congested area.

I imagine the New Urbanism thing isn't for everyone and that's why it's good to have many housing options in cities.  Having kids would make larger, suburban lots more attractive but a small, urban lot will fit our lifestyle and accommodate our small dog.  I'm curious to see what type of neighbors we have a Stapleton.  I know they've built a new school there so I don't think most people moving in are without kids. 

I know you are looking forward to it. I''ve been reading your posts about it for awhile. Keep us posted on it and how you like it.

[Thrillcekr]

I'll be back in Liberty later this week and I'll check it out again. I've eaten my words before.

Eat up.  The buffet is open.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascit ... 554475.htm

[zlohban]

It looks like a nice school building, Nota.

You can also see it from M152 if you look quick.  It  has an old bell tower or something on the roof.... must be to tie in with the homes.  I noticed several of the homes were opened tonight, I drove through to see the new duplex type homes, I wanted to stop look around but did'nt want to see any sales people.

Also, drove through ZR on my way home tonight.

[nota]

It looks like a nice school building, Nota.

You can also see it from M152 if you look quick.  It  has an old bell tower or something on the roof.... must be to tie in with the homes.  I noticed several of the homes were opened tonight, I drove through to see the new duplex type homes, I wanted to stop look around but did'nt want to see any sales people.

Also, drove through ZR on my way home tonight.

It's an elementary school, right?

The trick to avoiding the sales people is to tell them that you are already working with a realtor. They will drop you like a hot potato. 

I was in ZR last night. Bought a gift cert at Ann Taylor.

[zlohban]

Yes, it is an elementary school and that area needs one badly.  The Shoal Creek elementry School, just north of the Liberty (area) Target, had 150 kindergarten students enroll during round-up last year.  That area between 435 and M291 above M152 is filling in very rapidly with new homes, some very nice neighborhoods and some neighborhoods that are already trashed.

Advise to new home buyers...the paint is thin to begin with and soaks right into a new home, if you fail to re-paint and re-caulk within 5 years after your house is built....it will ROT.

[KC0KEK]

Betting the House: Traditional Neighborhoods still a risk, some say

By: Janese Heavin, Managing Editor April 28, 2005

Torrie Oswald hates her oversized garage.

She does not like the fact her house looks similar to all the houses in her Benson Place neighborhood. 

She and her family relocated to the subdivision from Colorado when her husband got a job in Kansas City last year. Oswald said they chose Benson Place, a Hunt Midwest Development, because "it was affordable."

There are aspects of the subdivision she likes. Oswald said she enjoys her large lot, her backyard and the fact that the garage is attached to the house.

She said she would not trade her house for a house in Shoal Creek Valley, a traditional neighborhood on the other side of Highway 152.

Although the Shoal Creek Valley houses are "adorable," Oswald said, the streets are too narrow.

"I want my cake and eat it to," Oswald said. "(Shoal Creek Valley) is very compiled. I wouldn't move there."

As Liberty officials struggle to find a balance between planning for traditional neighborhoods and conventional developments, most developers and housing experts agree the Northland needs both.

"It doesn't appeal to everybody," said Don White, the developing and planning director for Shoal Creek Valley. "Some people love the concept and enjoy living there. Others are perfectly content with another type of house."

Shoal Creek Valley has become a poster child for traditional neighborhood designs. The streets are narrow, houses are individualized and garages are in the back, away from the streets.

Traditional neighborhoods are still too new in the Kansas City area to determine whether buyers prefer them, said Matt Derrick, communications director for the Kansas City Home Builders Association.

Traditional neighborhood trends are taking awhile to appeal to the Midwest market, he said.

"The market takes time to adjust," Derrick said. "The results in the first communities are kind of slow. I have no doubt it's going to happen. It's just going to take a while for people to see it, know it's there and for developers and builders to know what the market is."

Cities should allow traditional designs, but support a "healthy mix" of house styles, Derrick said.

"The focus of the association right now is promoting housing choices," he said. "There's certainly a demand for conventional development. That's a pretty consistent trend.

"There are consumers out there who want ranch houses, who would like traditional neighborhood products. All choices need to be included," he said.

Scott Vul-gamott, a sales executive for Reece & Nichols, is developing Creekwod, one of

Housing risk, 12A

Liberty's first traditional neighborhoods. Vulgamott originally wanted to develop conventionally on his South Highway 291 property. He changed his mind when he heard other realtors talking about the need for new versions of old-style houses.

Vulgamott said he interviewed people at Shoal Creek Valley and Northgate, a traditional neighborhood in North Kansas City. He said he found people liked the unusual subdivisions.

Creekwood will use aspects of traditional neighborhoods while forgoing options that seem less appealing to the masses, Vulgamott said. Lot sizes will vary, but yards will be larger than yards in other Northland traditional neighborhoods, he said.

Developers who have dabbled in both types of developments say conventional choices are more popular than traditional designs.

Developer and former Liberty City Council member Jim Robertson said he sees more of a demand for houses in Clay Meadows, his conventional development, than in Claywood Villas, his semi-traditional neighborhood nearby.

"I'm selling about six lots a year in Claywood Villas versus 80 in Clay Meadows," he said.

Although Robertson said Claywood Villas is not a true traditional neighborhood, the subdivision does have garages set back and front porches.

Those who promote traditional neighborhoods say the porches and smaller lots bring neighbors together.

Robertson said neighborhood pools and clubhouses found in conventional developments achieve the same goal.

Claywood Villas residents who attended a Homeowners Association meeting last week said they do not spend time on their front porches, Robertson said.

"They get together in the community building and talk," he said.

Ora Reynolds, vice president of Hunt Midwest residential, said she has observed similar trends.

Hunt Midwest's first traditional neighborhood project, Northgate Village, is a redevelopment project in conjunction with North Kansas City.

"I truly believe it is a niche product," Reynolds said. "The entire market is not going to accept it."

Those who buy into traditional developments get a streetscape, something not found in conventional designs, she said.

"It's more about community, more about streetscape, walkability, connectivity," she said. "People meet at the neighborhood park instead of staying on the deck in the back. But we feel like our regular subdivisions build community in the same way."

Oswald said her Benson Place subdivision holds get-togethers, neighborhood garage sales and has a neighborhood newsletter.

"This neighborhood has gone against the grain to be friends with everybody," she said. "We have purposely come together."

One problem with developing traditional neighborhoods is cost, developers said.

Robertson said when some touted the idea of traditional designs to Liberty, they said the subdivisions would be less expensive and houses would cost less than conventional houses.

"Turns out that's not the case," Robertson said. "They're quite a bit higher."

Shoal Creek Valley house prices range from $350,000 to $450,000, White said. Later phases include townhouses, which will be in the $180,000 to $190,000 range.

The development has been more expensive because Shoal Creek Valley designed unique floor plans, White said.

"It's more difficult to do," he said. "It takes more time, more effort. It takes a little longer to sell."

Reynolds said Northgate has been successful, but not enough for Hunt Midwest to attempt a traditional neighborhood on vacant land.

"A lot of traffic comes through Northgate just to see what it is because it's different," she said. "We feel like it's successful, but we think it's all about choices and that people should have housing choices."

Prominent garages may not be aesthetically favorable, but they allow extra interior room behind and above them.

"If you push them back, all of a sudden you don't have that room," Reynolds said.

Oswald said she would give up some of the room in exchange for a garage on the side or in the back of the house.

She said her dream house would be unique, have plenty of backyard and a two-car garage, not unlike houses she saw when she lived in California. She said she prefers those styles over her Benson Place house.

"This would not have been my first choice," she said. "In Southern California, every house is different. It's the 'Father of the Bride' house. It's the charm."

Reynolds said Hunt Midwest recognizes the need for changes in development styles.

"We're watching the demographics change. That's as big of an issue as anything," she said.

As a new generation of house buyers dominates the market, Reynolds said, there might be too much of a supply of standard box houses.

"We may have to come up with other things to meet needs," she said.

Reynolds said cities should not put all of their eggs in one basket, though.

"Liberty playing with it around the Square makes a lot of sense," she said, "but to go in and say everything has to be traditional neighborhood design, I don't know if that's a smart move."


©Sun-News of the Northland 2005