Capping the Loop

[DColeKC]

I’m not sure if they’ll put more money into it. Isn’t a billion dollars enough? I think other people can surely step up if they want a “Henry Bloc” fountain or whatever else.

What’s atrocious is thinking the biggest investor in downtown should now put more money into something in order to have a say in its design.

We wouldn’t be seeing this coming to fruition without all the money already invested downtown.

I'm sorry but I don't get what you're saying. Investing in their own property isn't the same as donating money to the park. They will gain more from the park than *anyone* and right now they haven't even donated more than a crumb. These idiots won't even get us ground floor units filled up either.

After all the money we've subsidized for them and allowed them to profit (and int he future from the park), they can't even give us $20 mil or so for the park? Block gave $10 mil and they have one(!) building tucked in the back.

Will Cordish really cause the project to miss the deadlines it needs to open by the World Cup because of this?

Investing in downtown created the opportunity for this park. Not just by Cordish but by several other developers and the city.

You “allowed them to profit”. “These idiots”?

The block family is from here and are big philanthropists.

If this park misses some kind of deadline, it won’t be because Cordish didn’t give them more money via donations.

With your logic, there are a lot of people who should be donating since they’ll benefit. You don’t have to border the park to benefit.

You make it sound like 20 million dollars is no big deal and they should just toss it in.

[phuqueue]

We're not just talking about who will "benefit" from the park, though. You said on the last page that Cordish should "have a say in its design" just because they've invested other money downtown, so I think Roo's comment that their investment was city-subsidized and for-profit is relevant. Cordish's reward for their investments is the return those investments generate, nothing more and nothing less. If Cordish wants to be part of the park, they ought to invest in it too.

[herrfrank]

Henry and Richard Bloch (both deceased) and descendants funded
- the company H&R Block plus several iterations of HQ buildings -- the office complex on the northeastern edge of the Plaza at 4400 Main Street, and later the P&L downtown tower at 1301 Main. (there are earlier structures, also)
- the Cancer Survivors Park on the west side of the Plaza (plus another in Rancho Mirage)
- the redesign of Pershing Road at Union Station
- a substantial gift of art to the Nelson-Atkins
- years of Charitable Trust funding to local organizations
- other urban assets like the Wollman Rink in NYC Central Park

[DColeKC]

We're not just talking about who will "benefit" from the park, though. You said on the last page that Cordish should "have a say in its design" just because they've invested other money downtown, so I think Roo's comment that their investment was city-subsidized and for-profit is relevant. Cordish's reward for their investments is the return those investments generate, nothing more and nothing less. If Cordish wants to be part of the park, they ought to invest in it too.

I understand the sentiment that if they want more say, they should put more money in. I don’t know that they want more say in the design but considering they have a long standing relationship with the city, I’m sure they are getting some feedback into these ideas. I personally feel that those who risked it all to build when no one else would deserve a say considering their investment and role in revitalizing downtown creates this opportunity. That’s my opinion only. Also, they’ve already invested specifically in the park both financially and professionally. Maybe that’s not enough for them
To have a seat at the table.

They’ll have 1500 residents living in apartment buildings directly bordering this park. I feel they’d like a say on certain things but I’m sure they’re more concerned about park operations than the overall design. That’s where they money is going to come in.

[phuqueue]

I'm not sure I'd say that Cordish "risked it all." The city is the one picking up the tab for P&L's revenue shortfall.

[DColeKC]

I'm not sure I'd say that Cordish "risked it all." The city is the one picking up the tab for P&L's revenue shortfall.

The city is the one who hired the firm who organized the tax revenue projections. I’m not sure how that is any developers fault. No other developer stepped up after a decade of efforts to find someone who could do it. And I think it’s a fair argument that the money the city has had to pay is worth the results. Without PNL, there is no big 12 basketball tournament, NFL Draft or World Cup. It’s served as an advertising piece as part of the greater downtown revitalization and our downtown has been a crucial factor of gaining new residents. This isn’t just my opinion either. It’s been echoed by the past two city managers, 3 of the last 4 mayors and dozens of other people knowledgeable about tax incentivized projects.

So if you strictly judge it’s success on if the tax revenue has hit projections, you’re not considering the whole story.

Regardless, Cordish has invested a billion dollars of their own money above and beyond the required tax incentives that are critical to these types of public/private projects. I’m not saying they are the only ones who took the risk and leap of faith either. It was a handful of people who did this together. And thanks to those people, here we are, talking about putting a park over a freeway!

[Cratedigger]

Henry and Richard Bloch (both deceased) and descendants funded
- the Cancer Survivors Park on the west side of the Plaza (plus another in Rancho Mirage)

Not related on the cap but real quick regarding the cancer survivor parks - did you know there are over 20 around the nation?

I remember being surprised to stumble on the one in downtown Dallas.

The Blochs have been great supporters in Kansas City philanthropic causes for many years and the city is lucky they called KC home.

[phuqueue]

I'm not sure I'd say that Cordish "risked it all." The city is the one picking up the tab for P&L's revenue shortfall.

The city is the one who hired the firm who organized the tax revenue projections. I’m not sure how that is any developers fault. No other developer stepped up after a decade of efforts to find someone who could do it. And I think it’s a fair argument that the money the city has had to pay is worth the results. Without PNL, there is no big 12 basketball tournament, NFL Draft or World Cup. It’s served as an advertising piece as part of the greater downtown revitalization and our downtown has been a crucial factor of gaining new residents. This isn’t just my opinion either. It’s been echoed by the past two city managers, 3 of the last 4 mayors and dozens of other people knowledgeable about tax incentivized projects.

So if you strictly judge it’s success on if the tax revenue has hit projections, you’re not considering the whole story.

Regardless, Cordish has invested a billion dollars of their own money above and beyond the required tax incentives that are critical to these types of public/private projects. I’m not saying they are the only ones who took the risk and leap of faith either. It was a handful of people who did this together. And thanks to those people, here we are, talking about putting a park over a freeway!

I'm not talking about whether P&L has been successful or not, or whose fault it is if it hasn't been. I'm just pointing out that Cordish risked something considerably less than "it all." You treat Cordish like a white knight that rode in to downtown's rescue, but the reality is that any developer would have done it with a deal to their liking. Cordish was basically just the lowest bidder. They are a for-profit company that identified what they felt was an opportunity to make money, and their reward for their efforts is the money that they are making. You keep wanting to give them extra freebies, like when you wanted to bulldoze part of the Crossroads to put the Royals closer to P&L, or now when you argue that they should "have a say" in this park whether they contribute to it or not, but there are a lot of other stakeholders here with more immediate interests in these projects that can't just be ignored to throw unwarranted bonuses to Cordish.

[DColeKC]

I'm not sure I'd say that Cordish "risked it all." The city is the one picking up the tab for P&L's revenue shortfall.

The city is the one who hired the firm who organized the tax revenue projections. I’m not sure how that is any developers fault. No other developer stepped up after a decade of efforts to find someone who could do it. And I think it’s a fair argument that the money the city has had to pay is worth the results. Without PNL, there is no big 12 basketball tournament, NFL Draft or World Cup. It’s served as an advertising piece as part of the greater downtown revitalization and our downtown has been a crucial factor of gaining new residents. This isn’t just my opinion either. It’s been echoed by the past two city managers, 3 of the last 4 mayors and dozens of other people knowledgeable about tax incentivized projects.

So if you strictly judge it’s success on if the tax revenue has hit projections, you’re not considering the whole story.

Regardless, Cordish has invested a billion dollars of their own money above and beyond the required tax incentives that are critical to these types of public/private projects. I’m not saying they are the only ones who took the risk and leap of faith either. It was a handful of people who did this together. And thanks to those people, here we are, talking about putting a park over a freeway!

I'm not talking about whether P&L has been successful or not, or whose fault it is if it hasn't been. I'm just pointing out that Cordish risked something considerably less than "it all." You treat Cordish like a white knight that rode in to downtown's rescue, but the reality is that any developer would have done it with a deal to their liking. Cordish was basically just the lowest bidder. They are a for-profit company that identified what they felt was an opportunity to make money, and their reward for their efforts is the money that they are making. You keep wanting to give them extra freebies, like when you wanted to bulldoze part of the Crossroads to put the Royals closer to P&L, or now when you argue that they should "have a say" in this park whether they contribute to it or not, but there are a lot of other stakeholders here with more immediate interests in these projects that can't just be ignored to throw unwarranted bonuses to Cordish.

Cordish was a relatively small company when this deal was struck, marking a significant milestone in their corporate history. Undoubtedly, they took substantial risks. This is evident when you consider that, for over a decade, no other developer had been willing to tackle this project, making Cordish somewhat of a white knight in this scenario. To suggest that any developer would have eagerly taken on this challenge is quite comical, given that none did. Cordish did not secure this project simply by offering the lowest bid; rather, their success stemmed from having the most comprehensive plan and the capability to execute it effectively. While their profit motive is clear, as they are not a charity, characterizing this as a low-risk, straightforward, and highly sought-after deal that any developer would have jumped at is inaccurate. The risks they took have indeed paid off, benefiting both the company and the city.

Regarding the notion of "freebies," your perspective may differ from mine, and that's perfectly valid. I believe it's sound business practice to acknowledge those who have contributed to the growth of a venture by granting them a seat at the table. While you may emphasize "what have you done for me lately," I prioritize recognizing their cumulative contributions to the city.

My support for locating the stadium in the Crossroads stems from the belief that it would have been the optimal choice for rapidly enhancing the Crossroads and Power & Light District. It would have been strategically positioned to complement our entertainment areas and generate immediate economic benefits. Admittedly, the prospect of having stadium views from my apartment might have influenced my opinion somewhat. However, my allegiance is to Kansas City and downtown development as a whole.

As for Cordish having a say in the park, I have no information regarding their future financial contributions or decision-making influence. If they seek a greater say, it's reasonable to expect increased financial investment in the project. It's overly simplistic to assume that they haven't already contributed, as this project builds upon previous downtown investments. While these prior investments may not be direct monetary contributions to this specific project, they still constitute a valuable contribution. To clarify, I never suggested that other stakeholders should be disregarded or that Cordish should have sole or predominant influence. I only argued that Cordish, as the largest known downtown stakeholder, deserves input, irrespective of additional financial contributions to the park project.

I believe that if someone else were expressing the same views, the responses, including yours, might differ. It's possible that my identity as the "constant Cordish defender" has colored the reception of my remarks, which can sometimes lead to somewhat exaggerated reactions.

[phuqueue]

Cordish was a hundred years old when the deal was stuck, so I find it hard to believe they staked the entire company's continued existence ("risked it all") on this one deal, but hey, maybe they did, I don't know. It wouldn't move me either way. Business deals are supposed to entail risk. The fact that they took a risk of whatever magnitude it actually was for them should be considered standard practice, not cause for endless concessions/rewards beyond the scope of their investment. And I'm not suggesting that any other developer would have taken exactly the deal that Cordish did. Obviously none did. What I'm saying is that if Cordish hadn't taken it, and if the city progressively sweetened the pot, eventually they would have attracted someone else. Everybody has a price, and the city simply met Cordish's before they met somebody else's. This is the sense in which I characterized Cordish as the "lowest bidder," not that they literally provided a lower bid than others for a "highly sought-after deal." (Maybe the city wouldn't have been willing to sweeten the pot, but I'm not interested in a drawn out argument about a counterfactual, the point is that if the city was sufficiently committed to making this happen, they'd have found somebody to do it.)

It strikes me though that I don't recall having seen any actual source so far saying that Cordish wants this or that and is or isn't going to kick in any more funds for the park, it seems like that is just speculation on the part of people in this thread. As it's occurring to me that this argument might be completely untethered from anything that is actually happening or going to happen, I'm somewhat regretting having bothered to jump into it, so having given my opinion on what might be a completely hypothetical scenario of "Cordish wants to control the park but isn't going to pay for it," I'm happy to leave it at that.

[TheUrbanRoo]

If that's all they're going to donate then the city sure as shit shouldn't let them control it.

[DColeKC]

If that's all they're going to donate then the city sure as shit shouldn't let them control it.

Once again, who said anything about them controlling it? We have gone from having input to now controlling it? This is manufactured nothingness.

I think you’re being incredibly shortsighted and unrealistic on this one.

Sure, if they want to “control” any aspect of the park they’d need to put more money in. I think they just want this built as it’s going to be great for the city and their investment.

I will say though. None of us should want the city to control or run this once complete. And they won’t.

[TheUrbanRoo]

This is manufactured nothingness.

Oh come on, they get to manufacture BS in the Royals stadium site debate all the time. So why not here too. It's commonplace on the forum!

[WoodDraw]

Pretty much everything in this thread is wrong. It’s too long ago for people here to understand, but no.

Cordish was well established in Baltimore and in the market. You can read through the threads. A lot of us were hoping for ESPN and all of the super tourist places. This is literally what we brought in cordish to do.

It was to recreate what they did in Baltimore.

The recession hit hard and they did fuck all. No towers, no big tenants (but we got great concerts), and everyone moved on. The district was fine, but made no money.

Years later they started building towers and did well.

I know we're all old now but come on

[WoodDraw]

The benefit of this forum is that you can call all of us out for being stupid. But let's not make things up.

[droopy]

Surely Cordish can help out, but this would benefit everyone, not just Cordish though it would sit at the front door of their (our) investment.

Cordish has already agreed to make a very large contribution, but would need help from the city. In return for the investment, I believe cordish would want private control of some of the space, but not a majority by any means. I know as a downtown resident, I would love this green space because while there is some green space located close to PNL, I don't think it's nearly enough.

There are several benefits for Cordish investing. The space for residents and dog parks would be great, but the instant improvement to residential comfort by lowering the traffic noise would be big.

[droopy]

Surely Cordish can help out, but this would benefit everyone, not just Cordish though it would sit at the front door of their (our) investment.

Cordish has already agreed to make a very large contribution, but would need help from the city. In return for the investment, I believe cordish would want private control of some of the space, but not a majority by any means. I know as a downtown resident, I would love this green space because while there is some green space located close to PNL, I don't think it's nearly enough.

There are several benefits for Cordish investing. The space for residents and dog parks would be great, but the instant improvement to residential comfort by lowering the traffic noise would be big.

From August 2019, I don’t know how to link to the actual post. Holding is mine. Posting to show the conversation of control has been around a long time.

[DColeKC]

Cordish has already agreed to make a very large contribution, but would need help from the city. In return for the investment, I believe cordish would want private control of some of the space, but not a majority by any means. I know as a downtown resident, I would love this green space because while there is some green space located close to PNL, I don't think it's nearly enough.

There are several benefits for Cordish investing. The space for residents and dog parks would be great, but the instant improvement to residential comfort by lowering the traffic noise would be big.

From August 2019, I don’t know how to link to the actual post. Holding is mine. Posting to show the conversation of control has been around a long time.

Yes, this was before the project took off and it was announced that the port authority would manage the project and downtown council would help oversee it. It was also announced a non-profit would ideally run the day to day.

4 years ago I was making the argument that if they expect Cordish to contribute more money, they’d likely want some say or control of park programming and operations. A lot has happened in 4 years. This latest conversation isn’t about control, it’s about having input on the design.

[DColeKC]

Pretty much everything in this thread is wrong. It’s too long ago for people here to understand, but no.

Cordish was well established in Baltimore and in the market. You can read through the threads. A lot of us were hoping for ESPN and all of the super tourist places. This is literally what we brought in cordish to do.

It was to recreate what they did in Baltimore.

The recession hit hard and they did fuck all. No towers, no big tenants (but we got great concerts), and everyone moved on. The district was fine, but made no money.

Years later they started building towers and did well.

I know we're all old now but come on

This is not accurate. Cordish was a small company. I didn’t say they were not an established company. They had less than 30 full time employees and were just starting to get going on the entertainment district development. Up until that point, they had mostly focused on retail and real estate development. Strip malls mostly. They were doing maybe 10% of the business they’re doing now.

The plan was never, and I mean never to come out of the gate day one with residential. It was a long term plan where 6 towers were baked into the master development agreement.

It wasn’t to recreate what they did in Baltimore with Power Plant Live. That was a rehab project and this was mostly all new build.

It’s made money from almost the start, just not as much as anyone would have liked back in the early days with the recession. It’s now doing over 100 million a year.

Now if your sources are better than mine, great. I’ve actually talked to the Cordish family several times directly about this project and others.

Nothing I’ve said in here is wrong. Unless I’m clearly speculating and when I do that, I try to make it clear.

And some factual information that may not have been discussed back in the early days. A few of the early tenants that just didn’t make it to an agreement level.
Buffalo Wild Wings *where johnnnys tavern is located
Ruth Chris *two levels where Bristol and gallery is located

I think it worked out for the better.

Also, fun fact. I was highly involved in the construction and first few years of the district being opened before starting my own company. I was employed by Cordish at a director level, moving to VP before leaving. I’ve withheld this information for fear of being doxed but I’m tired of you always claiming I make things up.

[WoodDraw]

I know who you are. I've never doxed you because I'm not an asshole and I don't care.

Again I stand by what I said.

Cordish was well established and brought in partner brands. Parts of the district were never leased. It did well, but not enough to pay city bonds. They delayed the towers until the recession was over.

Cordish is and was an incredibly conservative developer that only builds when it suits them.

I won't take this rewriting of history as cordish being a plucky little developer that came to the rescue. It's complete bullshit.