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Do a trip report here....go to another city and want to relate it to what KC is doing right or could do better? Give us a summary in here.
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Post by chrizow »

went to st. louis this past weekend to visit my brother and sister-in-law. they live waaaay out in west-west-west st. louis county in wildwood. here is the rundown:

Wildwood/West County - wildwood was founded in 1997 and consolidated "grover" missouri with some unincorporated county land. it is very posh. it is not uncommon to see signs for new neighborhoods coming in which read: "IronHorseCreekManorTowne (or whatever) luxury homes from the 700s." the main arteries through this part of west county are Clarkson Rd. (similar to Roe in its mix of residential and commercial), Clayton Rd (same), and Manchester Rd., which is easily the biggest suburban clusterf*ck i have ever seen. for those not familiar with Manchester Rd., imagine the most built-up portions of Metcalf (i.e. from 114th to 135th or 92nd to college) stretching for 30 miles. incredible. i think every possible big box store and chain restaurant imaginable is on this street - at least 4 times. as sprawl goes, it is the worst, since everything is on this "strip" as opposed to the more grid-like sprawl of JoCo. either way it all makes me want to vomit. to be fair, there are lots of cool unique places in west county as well, including lots of great (expensive) restaurants like Paul Manno's, Annie Gunn's, and some hole-in-the-wall joints that are quite good. the housing stock is typical st. louis McMansion. whereas the typical JoCo McMansion is usually stucco or siding, the typical West County McMansion has a brick facade and siding everywhere else. this is lame, because if you're going to have a $750K home, it may as well have brick all over it. but i digress. West County is nice and rich and i am sure West Countians love it - except when they are sitting for 2 hours each way in the hellish highway 40 rush hour. you know sprawl is bad when 10 lanes of highway can't relieve congestion. VERDICT: nice, but i'd probably prefer JoCo sprawl to West County sprawl.

Inner Suburbs: Clayton/Ladue/Webster Groves - this is where St. louis has a definite edge on KC. since st. louis is so much older than KC and boomed so much earlier, it has a wealth of established, beautiful inner-ring suburbs. Clayton is essentially Mission Hills, but with a very large CBD with 15-20 story buildings. Clayton's CBD has a lot of law firms and big business, so money is in the air. nearby WashU gives the Clayton/U City area a certain Ivy League quality. it is very leafy and the homes are gorgeous. most date from the 1900s-30s. all suburbs can't be as rich as Clayton, but i think that all suburbs should use it as a model. it's dense, well-planned, well-groomed, and gorgeous. Ladue almost feels like a suburb of Clayton. while the amazing mansions and mid-sized Clayton homes are packed very tightly together on 1/4-acre or smaller lots, Ladue boasts turn of the century mansions and giant mid-century ranches sprawled on acre+ lots. the roads are narrow and windy, and many of the neighborhoods are on private streets. Ladue and Clayton serve as the homebase for many a CEO and old-money family. they are incredible. nearby Brentwood is like a smaller-scale Clayton in terms of housing stock, and serves as home to the Galleria and some big-box stuff. the plaza frontenac is another nearby mall that is actually quite impressive. the exterior is all brick, and the interior is marble and dark wood and is very elegant. this is where the locals come shop at Tiffany's, J. Crew, Neiman Marcus, etc. it is not as great as the Country Club Plaza since it is simply a very upscale enclosed mall, but it has some tenants that the Plaza does not. Webster Groves is a more down-to-earth inner suburb. it has a great little downtown with an upscale grocery store (Straub's) and other stores. very walkable. the homes range from Victorians to 1920's bungalows to 50s ranches to bland newer homes of all shapes and sizes - all on the same street! if i were a first-time home buyer in the burbs of st. louis, i'd probably look in Webster Groves. it has the feel of an old-line East Coast suburb in NJ or NY. very diverse housing stock. Kirkwood is also a favorite suburb, though it is a bit farther out in the county than the above. it has a very old downtown area and incredible old houses that are meticulously maintained. it feels like an old virginia town - lots of colonials and mature trees. the farmer's market in kirkwood is very quaint and picturesque, and the train station there is easily the most beautiful operating train station in st. louis. VERDICT: st. louis' old inner suburbs are amazing. i love cities, but if i had a family i'd definitely settle here. the only thing comparable in KC is Fairway, Mission Hills, Westwood/Westwood Hills, and extreme northeastern overland park. imagine that area, but about 20 times larger with vibrant business districts throughout. lovely!

University City: probably the coolest St. Louis suburb. it serves as a great microcosm of st. louis as a whole. there are leafy, beautiful streets with Clayton-style mansions and tudors as well as lots of St. Louis-style 4-plexes and small brick homes. as a whole, U City feels like Midtown KC. it's very urban, has a great bohemian district (the Loop is very much like our Westport), has great housing stock (like Hyde Park or Valentine), and also has a pretty gritty urban edge to it (some parts are rather ghetto). WashU is very close so i am sure U City is even more vibrant when school is in session and all the Wash U kids pack the clubs and stores.

St. Louis City: amazing. the stereotypes of st. louis usually say that it's burned-out, ghetto, dead, etc. i agree - but that's not the whole story. the City of St. Louis as a whole feels like a sleeping giant. when you travel through block after block after block of ornate 19th century architecture, you can really get a sense of st. louis' glory days. the architecture of st. louis rivals the best victorian/early20th century districts of DC, Baltimore, Cincy, etc. it is sad to see large areas of this architecture vacant and crumbling. empty overgrown lots abound. but you all knew that. what most people don't know or ignore is that st. louis' heart is still beating and it's getting better.

Central West End: an interesting district. old high-rise apartments and hotels line the streets (think the high-rises along the south end of the Plaza), and the streets are lined with unique shops, coffeehouses, and restaurants. very cool area! the Central West End also has lots of VERY old mansions packed tightly together. most are in very good shape and still serve as homes for old-money folks. others are snatched up by new-money folks and rehabbed back to their glory days. the homes are very ornate and unlike anything in KC. many of St. Louis' famous "private streets" are near the CWE. walking around these neighborhoods is like walking around in a Tim Burton movie. beautiful and unique and sort of a Gothic feel. if i were buying an apartment in the City, it would probably be in the CWE. it's walkable, it's vibrant, and the architecture is amazing.

downtown: honestly, i don't like downtown st. louis. i like the arch and the fact they have the downtown arena and stadium, but other than that i was unimpressed. the Washington Avenue nightclub district is great, however, and it is very apparent that lots of rehabbing is going on around downtown. like KC, a renaissance is in the air. and like KC, it has a long way to go. also like KC, downtown St. Louis has great "bones" to work with - lots of fabulous "canyons" of 10-story buildings, lots of great old warehouses, and loads of character. i did not go to Laclede's Landing, nor did i want to. if i want to rub elbows with aging frat guys, i'll stick to Westport (KC or St. Louis' Westport, either way). St. Louis' downtown has great buildings, but i think that St. Louis' soul is really in its neighborhoods.

Soulard/Lafayette Square/Old North St. Louis - amazing. these are the oldest parts of the city. they were (apparently) dead during the 70s/80s, but are all coming back in a big way. Soulard and Lafayette Square could just as easily be in New Orleans or DC. amazing 18th/early 19th-century townhouses/rowhouses in the french style. the quality varies widely from block to block, but these areas are seeing some serious rehabbing and are perfect for more. lovely.

South City: i love south city. well-maintained small brick bungalows and Tudors tightly packed into tight grids. it has a very urban quality. it looks similar to KC's Romanelli Gardens, but it has much more of an urban feel. it's much rougher around the edges. in South City you can talk to factory workers who grew up in the area as well as recent transplants looking for cute urban homes to fix up. it is very diverse as well, much like KC's Northeast side. lots of white people, lots of asian people, lots of african people, and everything in between. the bosnian contingent is very visible as well. a law school buddy of mine lives in South City and loves it. South City has really retained a sense of the "old neighborhood" communities of the early 20th century. whereas North St. Louis is largely a 1/2 vacant boarded up ghetto, South City has remained dense and pretty stable. there is a neighborhood bar on every corner, mom+pop shops everywhere, kids playing outside, etc. a great urban area. Tower Grove Park serves as the Loose Park of the area. i love south city.

i think that's about everything of note. i visited St. Louis Mills and other parts of suburban St. Louis, but they are very unremarkable. i preferred to stick to either the super-rich West County/Mid-County burbs or the gritty awesome city. the rest of st. louis feels like Independence.

at any rate, st. louis kicks ass. i think i like present-day KC better than present-day St. Louis, but once those ancient neighborhoods are brought back to life (and they clearly will be), i may change my mind. St. Louis' nice inner suburbs kill KC's though. i wish we had dense, beautiful urban suburbs like that. i guess it's just a function of age more than anything.

so yeah, that's chrizow's st. louis. :cheers:
Last edited by chrizow on Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by staubio »

Wow, excellent post. I'm excited to dig into STL more. I haven't been back there since I became more of an urban planning/history afficianado, so it will be fun.

I'm headed there Thursday, but I probably won't have time to do a lot of exploring, though I'm going to be staying in CWE.
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Post by dangerboy »

Great overview chrizow. Sounds like you didn't make it out to St. Charles County, which is the "new" West County. It's where most of the new housing and office construction is taking place, as St. Louis County has now filled up most of their vacant developable land. Many of the people that fled the city for West County are now migrating further out to St. Peters and O'Fallon in St. Charles County. Very similar to KC's migration from NE Joco to South Joco, and in the future from South Joco to the Northland.

Clayton is very interesting in that it is becoming a dense urban area, but with the sanitized face of a suburb. Imagine if Overland Park, NKC, or Independnece had chosen to develop their downtowns in the same way. Mid County and South City really show the differences between STL as an eastern city and KC as a western city.

The only problem I see with downtown St. Louis is that everything seems focused on Washington Ave, and recently also some attention around the old post office. Whereas KC's downtown is exploding in several different places. Not only in the loop but around it on three sides.
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Post by KCPowercat »

I love visiting StL...the one thing that is freaky is how all the burbs grow west....not north, not east, not south...everything goes west....it's crazy. At least in KC we get sprawl equal in all directions (except maybe west)
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Post by chrizow »

i did spend time in st. charles county, but left it out of my report. i personally hate st. charles county. i think it's more analagous to east Jack sprawl than JoCo. my brother almost bought out there, but luckily he stayed in the County. :)
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Post by staubio »

KCPowercat wrote:I love visiting StL...the one thing that is freaky is how all the burbs grow west....not north, not east, not south...everything goes west....it's crazy. At least in KC we get sprawl equal in all directions (except maybe west)
Omaha is the exact same way. In fact, the development pattern of the two cities (Omaha and STL) is really similar. A lesser city on the other side of the river and rapid expansion away from the river. Omaha is in a bad dash for the Rockies.

DISCLAIMER: The phrase "lesser city" is not intended to imply that Council Bluffs, Iowa or other related entities are indeed worse than Omaha or any other city. It merely speaks to popular perception in the region, population, development trends and crime rates in an attempt to draw parallels with areas east of the river in the St. Louis metro that share similar reputations, merited or not. Staubio acknowledges that some may find these communities to be "greater" by certain metrics and fully respects those analyses. While the above statement is doubtlessly blanket stereotyping, it should not be percieved as such.

Gotta be careful not to be one of those city comparing types. :-)
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Post by chrizow »

yeah STL definitely sprawls mostly to the west. it's bizarre. the area west of the city is like one gigantic suburban megalopolis. it isn't like in KC where you drive from burb to burb along 15 miles of farm (JoCo the notable exception). st. louis county is one huge suburb.

this is accentuated by the fact that there are very few really large suburbs in the STL area. chesterfield has the population of lee's summit and st. chuck does too, but aside from that STL burbs consist of like 75 small municipalities. many dont have their own police - hence the "St. Louis County" police are everywhere. and many mailing addresses way out in the county are "St. Louis, MO" even though they are probably technically something else.
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Post by trailerkid »

I don't mean to make this about KC, but I don't really care all that much about StL so...

Technically, isn't the Plaza our urbanized suburban district? It is right next to Fairway, Mission Hills, etc. I realize it is now a part of the urban core, but it is technically a suburban area. Why would NE Jo Co need a large urban suburban area when the plaza is footsteps away?
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Post by chrizow »

i was contrasting the inner-ring suburban parts of stl with kc.

it's true that the plaza area probably serves as the "CBD" of the NE JoCo and South Plaza hoods. what i was saying is that these inner ring stl burbs are (1) unique municipalities outside the city of st. louis, (2) that have their own very urbanesque suburban districts, (3) on a larger scale. downtown Clayton is a very large CBD-type district with tons of high-rises and posh hotels, like a CBD + Plaza. Kirkwood and Webster Groves and all the ones around there are simply more urban.

i think the main difference is this: each of the inner-ring suburban STL towns have vibrant urban districts sprinkled throughout them in addition to the more "centralized" "CBD" of downtown Clayton. the NE JoCo/South Plaza area is pretty similar, but it abuts the city of KC. thus, we have inner-ring suburbs dependent on CITY urbanity, while the STL inner ring burbs have THEIR OWN in addition to nearby st. louis city.

i never said NE JoCo "needed" anything. i was saying that i wish all subrubs could have been built as dense as Clayton and the rest. NE JoCo is vaguely analagous, so i'll say i wish all suburbs look like it as well. i am contrasting old dense suburban areas with lame sprawling ones.
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Post by dangerboy »

How does these sound for KC-STL comparisons?

South City - Midtown, Brookside, Waldo
Central West End - Midtown, Westport, Plaza
East St. Louis - eastern KCK
North City - East Side

Clayton - Plaza
Mid County (Ladue, Kirkwood, etc) - NE Joco, Brookside, Ward Parkway
West County - southern Johnson County
North County - Ruskin, Raytown, Grandview

St. Charles County - Northland or Eastern Jack
Metro East (Illinois suburbs) - Northland, Eastern Jack, or Western Wyco
Jefferson County - Cass or Leavenworth Counties
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Post by chrizow »

i think those are great comparisons. South City is more gritty than Brookside and Waldo could ever be though. South City is like midtown or Old Northeast more than anything. it's like Northeast with smaller homes. awesome comparisons though!
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Post by DTO »

Omaha's burbs do mostly go west and SW. I posted on our chamber website about the need to expand in other directions before it does become so unbearable to travel east.

DT StL could be on it's way to prominence once again. We were their a few years ago and you could see potential but the dirtiness was right in front of your face. We were walking around a corner af a building and their was so much trash blowing in the wind that a newspaper hit my brother in the face. It was like in the western movies with tumbleweeds.
StL city is losing alot of people though. It is even a smaller city than Omaha. I would chose KC over STL but I would like to see StL clean itself up.
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Post by KCDevin »

Stl only has 61 square miles though. Minneapolis even has less people than Omaha I believe. (in it's city)
most STL people are moving away from the city to the immediate suburbs, and they just keep moving out farther.
STL's urbanized area grew in land area and slightly in population
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Post by phxcat »

Soulard is awsome- it would be nice to throw it in the back of a van and bring it over here- it does have some holes and decay, but nothing like North City. The Landing is one of the most frustrating aspects of STL (besides the mindless sprawl of St. Charles Co and the pride most St. Louisans have toward it)

When you visit the Landing you get the feeling that this area could have been an historic district unique to the midwest- you realize that STL is almost as old as the eastern sea board cities- and that, if preserved, it could have had the same feel- but LaClede's Landing is like seeing one KC Style building all by itself- just a small patch of cobblestones and a few buildings left of the old town.
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Post by chrizow »

exactly. in fact st. louis IS as old as most really old cities in the US. it was founded in the late 1700s and was pretty big only a couple decades later.

i think that detroit and st. louis are the two biggest sob stories in the Huge City Goes to Shit canon. it's so frustrating to see such amazing urban cores turn into ghost towns.

luckily for everyone not bolting for Lego-Land (st. chuck, west county) the city is coming back in a big way.
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Post by Louman »

dangerboy wrote:How does these sound for KC-STL comparisons?

South City - Midtown, Brookside, Waldo
Central West End - Midtown, Westport, Plaza
East St. Louis - eastern KCK
North City - East Side

Clayton - Plaza
Mid County (Ladue, Kirkwood, etc) - NE Joco, Brookside, Ward Parkway
West County - southern Johnson County
North County - Ruskin, Raytown, Grandview

St. Charles County - Northland or Eastern Jack
Metro East (Illinois suburbs) - Northland, Eastern Jack, or Western Wyco
Jefferson County - Cass or Leavenworth Counties
The Plaza is more like the CWE - not Clayton.

St. Louis also has a Midtown, which stretches from Jefferson Avenue to Sarah St. Then Delmar Blvd. to Chouteau Ave.

It includes St. Louis University, A.G. Edwards campus, Harris-Stowe State College, Grand Center Arts and Entertainment District, St. Louis U. Medical Center.

This is a good picture. Every single building is considered Midtown.

Image
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Post by KCDevin »

I was just wondering, even though Crown Center is downtown, what could it be compared to in St. Louis? (IE. What if Crown Center was seperate from downtown)
I've always liked these two photos:
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Post by dangerboy »

Louman, does the CWE include much office space? I always thought it was mostly apartments and stores. The Plaza, like Clayton, is a suburbanite-friendly "second downtown." It has equal parts shopping, residential, and office - including several high rises and corporate headquarters.
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Post by chrizow »

i think i saw him at the NASCAR wing of the St. Louis Mills mall-tainment center.
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