We need a new airport!!!

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normalthings
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby normalthings » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:37 pm

They noted FAA, Airlines asking for bigger terminal, and something else(was it delayed MoU signing?) as the 3 primary drivers for the delay. Delay wasn’t considered to be very long

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby KCPowercat » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:07 pm

Yes mou was third....and it's disappointing given we picked Edgmoor partly because they said they could build faster and hence cheaper.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby KCPowercat » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:15 pm

Of course schedules slip...but this early on doesn't bode well

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normalthings
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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby normalthings » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:16 pm

Not necessarily Edgemoor’s fault. They couldn’t have foreseen 1. The city’s pushback on the MOU. 2. The Airlines asking for a bigger terminal. 3. The FAA telling the avaiation department to slow it down.

I think the other firms would likely have run into the exact same issues making their build times even longer.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby cityscape » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:41 am

I think the argument that they couldn't have expected #3 is horse crap. That's their job and they've build new terminals before and thus should have understood the FAA wanted them to wait until environmental studies were complete. So, I can foresee 4-6 months delay for 1 and 2 but not for the FAA one. They should have been able to determine that.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby flyingember » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:16 am

cityscape wrote:I think the argument that they couldn't have expected #3 is horse crap. That's their job and they've build new terminals before and thus should have understood the FAA wanted them to wait until environmental studies were complete. So, I can foresee 4-6 months delay for 1 and 2 but not for the FAA one. They should have been able to determine that.

I would say this, except about everything with the federal government changed in 2017. Nothing around policy should expected to be the same.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby KCPowercat » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:12 pm

normalthings wrote:Not necessarily Edgemoor’s fault. They couldn’t have foreseen 1. The city’s pushback on the MOU. 2. The Airlines asking for a bigger terminal. 3. The FAA telling the avaiation department to slow it down.

I think the other firms would likely have run into the exact same issues making their build times even longer.


Agree on 1 but the other two are ridiculous....there is no need for us to make excuses for them.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby normalthings » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:16 pm

cityscape wrote:I think the argument that they couldn't have expected #3 is horse crap. That's their job and they've build new terminals before and thus should have understood the FAA wanted them to wait until environmental studies were complete. So, I can foresee 4-6 months delay for 1 and 2 but not for the FAA one. They should have been able to determine that.

#3 is completely based on how you interpret the rules/Laws. I believe the rule is that you can’t sign contracts and such until the EA is approved by FAA. KCAD and co. thought that sending out RFPs was fine as long as you don’t actually sign final contracts. The FAA regional office interprets that rule differently and thus disagrees. KCAD is sounds like had approached the FAA in DC to discuss their interpretation.
Last edited by normalthings on Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby normalthings » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:17 pm

KCPowercat wrote:
normalthings wrote:Not necessarily Edgemoor’s fault. They couldn’t have foreseen 1. The city’s pushback on the MOU. 2. The Airlines asking for a bigger terminal. 3. The FAA telling the avaiation department to slow it down.

I think the other firms would likely have run into the exact same issues making their build times even longer.


Agree on 1 but the other two are ridiculous....there is no need for us to make excuses for them.

Not sure how #2 is is ridiculous. Please elaborate.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby KCPowercat » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:09 pm

expanding the gates by 4 didn't cause a year delay. That's insanity.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby KCPowercat » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:14 pm

But hey this is the risk we took when we sign a small firm like Edgemoor...they obviously didn't have the experience to know how the FAA worked.....it's just frustrating to be promised a year earlier final max price and that will give us more airport for the buck and it's taken away within a month or two of signing the agreement.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby normalthings » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:42 pm

KCPowercat wrote:expanding the gates by 4 didn't cause a year delay. That's insanity.

The facility had to be "redesigned" to not just have 4 more gates but also the support structure for 7 more gates and be designed in a way for 15 more to be built. I'm saying that all these factors came together to create a delay of a length that hasn't been determined yet. This adds a lot of complexity as the developer, airlines, ownership, and the design team try to figure out what is needed when, where it's needed, and how much the airlines are willing to pay for. It a very complicated process. Many, many, many options and plans have to be examined. There complexities are obviously new and not anything that any other proposal took into consideration.

Back to the FAA side. It sounds to me like everyone including the city thought that issuing RFPs was acceptable. It also sounds like FAA in DC may think the same. I guess we will know more next month. The few months of delays that have been caused by these 3 issues pales to the delays the city caused in pushing back building the new terminal over the years.
Last edited by normalthings on Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby KCPowercat » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:00 pm

Seems the other bids thought of those complexities and Edgmoor ovepromised...due to inexperience or just straight up misled us.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby KCPowercat » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:05 pm

What's done is done...this isn't a huge thing overall...it's just frustrating and is not s good look for the city who ultimately gets blamed by the citizens around the region.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby WoodDraw » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:55 pm

KCPowercat wrote:What's done is done...this isn't a huge thing overall...it's just frustrating and is not s good look for the city who ultimately gets blamed by the citizens around the region.


I don't think you're super wrong, but I still think you're wrong. Edgemoore had been trying to do this on a very aggressive 30% design financial close. The airlines came in and said they wanted something a little different, and that's not de minimis. Add on to that the bs from the city, and this was always going to slip right. And in KC, the airlines have a defacto veto.

I take more issue with the environmental stuff. But again, you have to have a MOU to do work that you will be payed for.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby KCPowercat » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:18 am

I don't understand based on your comment what you think I'm wrong about? I very well could be (it's typical) I just don't understand what you are pointing out.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby normalthings » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:44 am

KCPowercat wrote:I don't understand based on your comment what you think I'm wrong about? I very well could be (it's typical) I just don't understand what you are pointing out.

I think that he says your wrong about Edgemoor under delivering /misleading

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby KCPowercat » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:54 am

I didn't say that in the quote....hence confusion.....

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby WoodDraw » Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:52 am

Sorry, I was referring to the conversation above along with the quote. I was trying to say that this project was always going to slip and I don't see much edgemoor could have done.

I haven't seen any evidence that this is their fault yet. I'm sure they'll sit and take the abuse because that's their job, but they seem to be trying to herd a bag of cats with all their own opinions while being the only adults in the room. I'm still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now.

Sometimes you have people you work with that lash out and blame anyone they can as a pr strategy, and others that stand in front silent and soak up all the bullets. You can read into that what you want.

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Re: We need a new airport!!!

Postby KCPowercat » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:14 pm

Here is my thing. All other bids had a later max price date. Edgmoor heavily promoted they could get started faster with a quicker final price, etc. Which meant more airport for the price set.

The delays very well maybe unavoidable by anything they could have done better....but the other bids looked to have been more realistic timeline wise....why is that? Because those bidders had more experience with a complicated process and knew not to promise such an early date? I don't honestly know.....but one of the selling points by Edgmoor is going away right out of the gate.

That sours me a bit on them....and many around the city already saying "shocker, KCMO project delayed already". Edgmoor over promised....and the city pays the price.


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