Does KC have decent public Transportation?

KCK · Post by **KCK** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 4:27 pm

I am in a class and my teacher was going on about how lower income people in KC were at a horrible disadvantage because of KC's car based culture. I quickly pointed out that there is the bus. What I didn't realize was that this professor was coming from the rich suburbs. Out there they have very little public transportation.

This question is really not just about Kansas City, Missouri, but the whole metro area. Is bus service good throughout the suburban areas? I have been under the assumption that since The Metro has stops in KCK, that you could get on the metro and maybe change buses at some point and end up in KCMO, but I have never actually tried, is this true? The same for The JO?

Is there decent bus service in the Northland? What about Lees Summit? Independence? I will admit, I primarily hang out in Kansas City when I'm in Missouri, so I really don't know about the suburbs over there. I see the metro all the time at Devry.

A person I work with who is a recent immigrant lives at 106th and Metcalf. She told me that the Johnson County bus does not have a stop near there, she asked a bus driver. I thought that area was pretty high flow and busy and assumed that if The JO traveled anywhere it would be near here. I asked her why she lived in Overland Park if she had no access to a vehicle. She told me that many people had given her an impression, of Kansas City that it was a dangerous place and swayed her toward Johnson County. The really funny thing about that is that when she first came to the US, she stayed in Washington DC.

Post by **bahua** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 5:14 pm

As with most cities, the public transit in Kansas City focuses chiefly on the city itself. The Jo, as I see it, was founded to fill the gap of getting people to downtown KCMO from JoCo that the ATA either wasn't able to fill, or wouldn't.

But, for getting around the suburbs, it really is a car-owner's world. Even in the city, the bus isn't very comprehensive or frequent. It all boils down to the fact that cars reign in KC, and that isn't a good thing.

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 5:16 pm

DeadManWalking wrote:I am in a class and my teacher was going on about how lower income people in KC were at a horrible disadvantage because of KC's car based culture. I quickly pointed out that there is the bus. What I didn't realize was that this professor was coming from the rich suburbs. Out there they have very little public transportation.

Funny you said this because one of my professors said the same thing last week. She said that KC has one of the worst bus systems for a big city and that transportation is a major quality of life issue that often factors into poverty. I had no information to give her and I am not sure if she has facts or is just using the common perception. She is highly educated and lives somewhere in KC-- splitting time between Lawrence and KU Med, so I assume she at least has some knowledge of transit in KC. However, she may be just another Jo Coer who knows nothing about riding buses and the like...which opens up another can of worms.

tat2kc · Post by **tat2kc** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 6:03 pm

Public transportation in the suburbs, particulary Joco, is awful. Since I work with Blind folks, we do a lot of teacing in public transportation related areas, since they can't drive. It really limits where people can choose to live. Use of taxis is simply not something that most people can afford to do daily for work and then for leisure. We really have to look at the type of employment and leisure activites that my students will be involved in after their education is done, and the accessiblity of public transportation. For people who cannot drive, employment opportunities and living situations are driven more by the availability of public transportation rather than if they like a certian part of the metro area.

UMKCgal · Post by **UMKCgal** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 6:48 pm

I'd have to agree that cars dominate in KC. I live at 106th and Metcalf too, and even though its a bustling street, I rarely see the JO or even taxis. So, sadly enough, the only way to get around is the car.

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 11:58 pm

UMKCgal wrote:So, sadly enough, the only way to get around is the car.

In most of the 'burbs this is the reality. Jo Co is not for pedestrians period. I get by in Lawrence without a car and I live in the semi-burbs. I would anticipate that if you lived in the core you can live without a car-- although it might not always be pleasant.

GRID · Post by **GRID** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 1:43 am

KC has the worst transit (big city) system in the nation, period.

I thought you guys knew that

.

Seriously, KC has about 250 buses and really only two or three routes that are even busy (Country Club, Ward Parkway, Troost etc).

KC's system is comparable to small metro areas like Omaha, Peoria etc.

Almost no commuter service what-so-ever and what it does have is very limited.

Almost no bi-state service.

Almost no fixed route suburban service.

Almost no suburb to suburb service.

A trip to the airport is flat out embarrassing in KC if you are lucky enough to even have the option (they donâ€™t run all the time.)

Types of vehicles in the fleet here is limited. We don't have articulated buses, commuter buses, rail, etc.

We don't have fixed guidway transit (BRT is coming), don't have park n rides (gravel lots and mall parking lots don't count), don't have HOV lanes (no reason to take a bus and sit in traffic), don't have transit centers (10th and Main is not a transit center), don't have intermodel hubs (we wish Union Station was), we don't have a bike trail system that would tie into transit, and we don't have any money (KC transit is WAY under funded).

JoCo, a county of nearly half million has just a few commuter routes and even less fixed routes and the only time I have seen more than five people on one of those buses is when they run to Chiefs games.

The Dotte, a county that you would think would support buses more is not much better than JoCo. It's system "The Bus" would not even compete with the Jefferson City, MO (pop 30k) system and the Metro runs just a few routes over there.

The Missouri suburbs, except Independence have no fixed route service, but commuter routes run at near capacity. KC, North has the best suburban service because it's KCMO, but nothing to call home about.

Now look at Denver:

Structured garages and real transit centers all over the suburbs and the city.

Over 1000 buses and dozens of light rails with BRT and commuter rail on the way.

HOV lanes for commuter bus lines to use where there is not LR.

An absolutely insane bike trail system that is used by commuters by itself, but is also very tied into the transit system. They even have a bike garage downtown with showers and lockers near Union Station. Speaking of Union Station, it will be a true intermodel hub of LR, commuter rail, 16th mall buses, BRT, biking, etc.

Buses run to and from the suburbs all day long and not just during rush hour. Buses run between suburbs and along suburban fixed route systems and are busy, also all day long.

Commuter buses are coaches, they donâ€™t put â€œcityâ€

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 3:19 am

Grid, I respect your opinion, but after using the etrip planner http://68.166.86.20/etripplanner/ I am finding a hard time empathizing with your tirade on The Metro. I am putting in a number of locations and getting back pretty reasonable results for the core and even Indy, KCK and NKC. These all include walking times:
1. 25th and Prospect to Ward Pkwy and Wornall: 33 minutes, 1 transfer
2. 14th and State (KCK) to 12th and Locust (KCMO): 33 minutes, 1 Transfer
3. Armour and Howell (NKC) to 31sh and Broadway: 42 minutes, 1 Transfer
4. Truman Rd. and Hardesty Ave to 39th and Bell: 1 hour 3 minutes, 1 transfer
5. Gregory Blvd. and Cleveland to 12th and Main: 47 minutes, 0 transfers
6. N. Main and Lexington Ave. (Indy) to Grand and Pershing: 1 hour, 1 transfer

Just because people in KC do not choose to ride the bus and they are half empty does not mean it sucks or it is worthless. I personally don't mind a 30 minute to an hour bus ride opposed to city traffic and the cost of insuring and maintaining a car. Buses give you ample time to read the paper and books or observe the people and stuff around you.

KC obviously has a ways to go on a competitive level. I would like to see the buses expanded to a 24/7 type basis. It'd also be nice to have overhead cargo racks and such.

[quote="GRID"]
Commuter buses are coaches, they donâ€™t put â€œcityâ€

KCforumer · Post by **KCforumer** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 4:35 am

As for KCK's transit service:
Inner KCK (east of I-635) is served by The Metro, while suburban KCK is served by The Bus, a product of the Unified Government. The two services work together as far as transfers, schedules, and the call center go.

During the week, inner KCK's transit is pretty good, IMO. Inner KCK's routes run at a frequency of 30 mins. Most of inner KCK's routes even offer hourly night service until 10:00 PM.

On Saturday, it sucks. The routes that do run only do so from 6:00 AM until 6:00 PM. There is no service in KCK on Sunday.

Anyway, there is a really cool map of the entire system of the Metro's bus routes at their website. It is almost 2 megabytes and HUGE:
http://www.kcata.org/_kcatadata/SysMap/MetroMap.jpg

For those with dial-up connections, there are smaller PDF maps at:
http://www.kcata.org/_kcatadata/SysMap/SystemMap.html

It looks like, at least from the map, that inner Independence is served fairly well.

KCforumer · Post by **KCforumer** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 5:53 am

KCforumer wrote:It looks like, at least from the map, that inner Independence is served fairly well.

Scratch that. I've looked at all of the schedules for Independence's routes. They all only run at a frequency of once per hour from 6:30 AM until 5:30 PM Monday through Friday. Each route has hourly Saturday service from about 9 AM until 5:30 PM. There is no night or Sunday service.

KCK · Post by **KCK** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 9:05 am

KCforumer wrote:As for KCK's transit service:
Inner KCK (east of I-635) is served by The Metro, while suburban KCK is served by The Bus, a product of the Unified Government. The two services work together as far as transfers, schedules, and the call center go.

Pretty accurate info KCForumer, except the fact that the metro does indeed travel beyond I-635, and all the way up State Ave, at least to Providence Medical Center. When I used to work there, I would see the metro now and then. I think the schedule for the metro is a lot less frequent further west, but that traffic is picked up by The Bus. Unlike JOCO, KCK at least has people who use the transit services provided with our high ass taxes, and the bus service, at least on weekdays, is sufficient to get to everywhere from KUMed to downtown to Village West and over into Missouri, and there is even actually a bus stop in Wyandotte County Lake. JOCO bus service by comparison is just bad. The biggest improvement KCK could add would be the same bus service on weekends as on weekdays.

I don't know how to improve transit in KC without a major overhaul and a large bi-state cooperation and agreement to do it. Right now I believe KCK is the only city in Kansas that has any sort of agreement with KCMO's transit system.

I suggested on another post that KCK needs to move its main bus station from Indian Springs into downtown KCK, where bus ridership is the highest. Also it would be nice to have real bus stops in KCK, not just a sign next to a pole. Everyday I see people sitting on the curb, or in the grass while waiting for the bus, why not provide a bench?

Finally commuter rail from both the Missouri and Kansas suburbs. Grid said that the commuter buses from the Missouri burbs were packed, wouldn't this mean that a higher capacity solution might be necessary.

I read a feasibilty study on projected commuter rail routes, and the best route they found was to be a commuter rail line from Topeka through Lawrence and into KC.

KCforumer · Post by **KCforumer** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:39 am

Yes, The Metro provides hourly night and Saturday service for The Bus's State Av route. It travels State Av from Indian Springs to Village West hitting KCKCC and Providence Med Center along the way.

It does seem silly how some of their routes are set up. It seems that it would be more efficient and much more convenient for customers if a few of the routes were combined.

For example,
The Minnesota Av route, which is provided by The Metro, travels from 10th and Main in downtown KCMO to Indian Springs, where it terminates. Indian Springs is the eastern terminus of UG's State Av route. It would be so much cooler if these routes were one that could transport riders from downtown KCMO and KCK to Village West via Indian Springs without transferring on to a different bus.

Then, there is the 7th St/Parallel route, which is also provided by The Metro. It travels Parallel and its western terminus is Indian Springs. Indian Springs is the eastern terminus of the UG's West Parallel route, which travels west on Parallel from Indian Springs. Seems like they should be one route.

And, the same goes for the Quindaro and Leavenworth Rd routes too. They should be one. And there are others like this!

GRID · Post by **GRID** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 11:09 am

Trailer, I grew up in urban kcmo and used if for many years up to college as my only means of transportation. Do that and then tell me what you think of it.

I still use it as often as I can even though I live in the burbs and own two nice cars.

Like I said, it's "ok" in the linear core of KCMO (frequency still sucks). but outside of that, you are very limited in KCMO and extremely limited in the suburbs.

Post by **bahua** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 11:40 am

I carry a grudge against the etrip planner on the ATA's website, because it has a browser sniff in it that denies browsers that don't identify as IE, as if it's still 1997.

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 11:41 am

GRID wrote:Trailer, I grew up in urban kcmo and used if for many years up to college as my only means of transportation. Do that and then tell me what you think of it.

I still use it as often as I can even though I live in the burbs and own two nice cars.

Like I said, it's "ok" in the linear core of KCMO (frequency still sucks). but outside of that, you are very limited in KCMO and extremely limited in the suburbs.

I just haven't found waiting for a bus to be that frustrating, but I've never riden The Metro (KU buses come every 30, The T comes every 40). I agree that frequency is one of the main concerns. If you have a high frequency of buses (every 10-15 minutes) it is, no doubt, a more practical option than driving. This is something that needs to happen to ensure more ridership-- at least on lines going down Broadway or other main lines. I am obviously preaching to the choir, but taking the bus is a lifestyle option for most and a necessity for others.

Why is it surprising and disappointing the 'burbs(specifically the outer ones) don't have good transit? Do you really expect somewhere like So Jo Co to have a fair amount public transit? When you get a bunch of white Republicans together, the last thing they want is a subsidized public source of transit to and from their neighborhoods. After all, they are there to flee the urban core-- not connect themselves to it. Are we supposed to be surprised that people who build "lifestyle shopping centers" just so they don't have to deal with "common folk" that may congregate in a mall or public square don't want public transit? You would have to pry the keys to their H2s and Rovers from their cold dead hands...

KCK · Post by **KCK** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 5:38 am

I have been checking out the website for The Jo. It seems their transit is almost entirely dedicated to people who work around 9 to 5 Monday through Friday. They have no middle of the afternoon trips, and from what I can tell The Jo doesn't run at all on the weekends. Unless you are a commuter it looks worthless. If you are lower income and work at night in JOCO, you have a two hour window in the morning and two hour window in th evening to go somewhere and get back unless you plan on staying for 8 hours+.

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 12:32 pm

DeadManWalking wrote:I have been checking out the website for The Jo. It seems their transit is almost entirely dedicated to people who work around 9 to 5 Monday through Friday. They have no middle of the afternoon trips, and from what I can tell The Jo doesn't run at all on the weekends. Unless you are a commuter it looks worthless. If you are lower income and work at night in JOCO, you have a two hour window in the morning and two hour window in th evening to go somewhere and get back unless you plan on staying for 8 hours+.

Why are you surprised that a middle class to upper middle class suburban area that was built to flee the city does not have good public transportation? The least thing they are concerned about is "lower income" people trying to get to work.

Surprising? No. Sleazy and even immoral? Yes.

KCK · Post by **KCK** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 2:19 pm

I don't know, in my head any area with nearly 500,000 people would have excellent transit service. I mean everyone out there can't be rich and drive an suv. Kansas City needs to look at Atlanta, who built it's excellent commuter rail system back when the metro was around 1.7 million.

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 2:30 pm

What would be the point of having transit from 119th and Nall to 151 and Metcalf? There are no pedestrians out there and the development is built for cars (i.e. walking through massive parking lots, gated communities, inadaquate sidewalks).

The suburban sprawl of Atlanta makes KC look like Midtown Manhattan.

paisstat · Post by **paisstat** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:15 am

Mass or Public Transit IS terrible in KC. The bus runs very less frequent than in other cities and underserves individuals who need it. Improvement of public transit is essential to arrest sprawl and promote inward growth. Of course we need a few light rail lines criss-crossing the city, but we also need intensified bus service. Having visited many cities in the US and many in Europe, its pretty easy to see the difference. While larger American cities like Chicago or New York are similar to European cities with the level of access to public transit, those cities still don't compare. Its nice to see busses lined up on a street instead of waiting a half hour for a bus, as can be the situation in KC.

KCRag Forum