Rail to KCI - 2023

[KCPowercat]

This is financing, not funding. Gotta have local money in hand to unlock those low federal interest rates through TIFIA, etc.

So this is good news, no news?

[langosta]

This is financing, not funding. Gotta have local money in hand to unlock those low federal interest rates through TIFIA, etc.

So this is good news, no news?

You have to pay the financing off somehow (ie local tax revenues). TIFIA and RRIF are low interest loan programs, not grants, and need to be repaid.

[Chris Stritzel]

$10.5 Billion (expected) to run a train to the airport is something I'm skeptical of. The density isn't there and the NIMBYs of the Northland will have a stroke at the thought of a train coming by their houses and denser developments potentially being proposed along the route. It ultimately depends on the type of system. Will it be express or have stops every so often? I'd prefer express powered by catenary wires so that the line can branch off and later be extended to St. Joe and Omaha when conditions become more favorable.

For now, I'd prefer the focus be on East-West Streetcar, the 35 and 71 studies, Blue River enhancements, and the South Loop Park. These are all better projects in my view and worth the money.

[KCPowercat]

This is financing, not funding. Gotta have local money in hand to unlock those low federal interest rates through TIFIA, etc.

So this is good news, no news?

You have to pay the financing off somehow (ie local tax revenues). TIFIA and RRIF are low interest loan programs, not grants, and need to be repaid.

Understood. So basically nothing.

[langosta]

So this is good news, no news?

You have to pay the financing off somehow (ie local tax revenues). TIFIA and RRIF are low interest loan programs, not grants, and need to be repaid.

Understood. So basically nothing.

It sets the stage for local action. We have built excitement around the streetcar but have failed to put the goodwill to use. This plan gives us a visionary target to point that excitement toward. The city's capital program would catapult Kansas City to the stars and massively improve quality of life in every corner of KCMO. This is the dramatic change GRID begs for.

[alejandro46]

I have a lot of questions but firstly this partnership seems better than no partnership of course.

All of these proposals are preliminary. We will still need local funding to pay the loans back. As far as I can tell, no funding mechanism has been identified.

Maybe rail to KCI was just chosen to grab headlines or because the World Cup approaches we identified we struggle to host big events. I have no idea. I still remain skeptical of the plan and a little surprised by the proposed price tag. They call is “high speed rail,” but I doubt we’ll be seeing a TGV or Shinkansen pulling up anytime soon instead more like a commuter or apm type vehicle.

FWIW, the recently completed Hawaii Skyline train’s final budget is $12.4B USD over 20 miles.

[GRID]

It's great to see some actual planning going on. However 10.5 billion for 20 miles of rail? That seems really high unless they are talking about something far more substantial than streetcar or even the basic street running light rail that KC has always proposed. This would have to be a very robust light rail system in all dedicated right of way including a new bridge over the river, lots of elevated track and even some tunnels to get the price up that high.

[dnweava]

It's great to see some actual planning going on. However 10.5 billion for 20 miles of rail? That seems really high unless they are talking about something far more substantial than streetcar or even the basic street running light rail that KC has always proposed. This would have to be a very robust light rail system in all dedicated right of way including a new bridge over the river, lots of elevated track and even some tunnels to get the price up that high.

price wise, it's on par with the new Hawaii metro line which is completely elevated, has driverless trains, and platform screen doors. (essentially the first modern rail line in the US)

[alejandro46]

Please bear with me, this is a bit of a long post. On this forum, I have generally been negative about mode selection of BRT versus Streetcar and/or fixed rail in KC for transit expansion.

This is both a personal preference due to the permanency of rail lines, the demonstrated high impact spin-off development potential of TOD as well 100% unashamed personal preference that I, along with my family, really enjoy riding the streetcar. If I was czar of KC with $15B I'd immediately fund the NextRail plan implementation.

The only reason why it makes any logical sense to expand the streetcar beyond that to the suburbs is because a KC-citywide vote is required prior to any additional expansions, and without the whole metro paying for it, the numbers don't add up. Even if the total trip time was longer to run a center-running dedicated lane "light rail streetcar+" along Burlington/NorthOak route, first, we really don't need it to be that fast. Secondly, the spin-off development potential is much greater, the cost would be more like $2.1B (based on napkin math current expansion $100.5m/mile*21), we already have experience with this type of vehicle so no dedicated vehicle maintenance facility is required, limited new personnel training, interoperability of trains and parts, etc.

Expanding the streetcar north is one thing, but this is clearly intended to be different. For the price tag thrown out, I just don't see the justification without a lot more information.

Even if you nearly replicated the Hawaii system from Rivermarket to KCI fully grade-separated, all the bells and whistles, airports just don't generate that high of a number of trips to justify $500M/mile "high speed" (?) rail system especially for the limited catchment area of the streetcar starter line. For several reasons I think this is a bad idea.

In my opinion, I think the spin-off development effects are limited in Northland. The corridor shown is along a major interstate in a heavily car-dependent and low-density area with limited retail and development opportunities and low local trip drivers. To be 'high-speed,' meaning the train does not stop frequently you'd need express and local services (additional cost and complexity).

The KCATA's total budget right now is $117M a year. Spending 100X the budget on one line seems disproportionate.

So, if the objective is to move people from downtown to KCI at some higher speeds (???) than a streetcar, and we don't really care about spurring development along the route, and let's not spend $10b, we should once again consider the humble BRT.

I suspect we could build something like the Xiamen BRT, not quite as overboard with grade separation but still completely separate lanes along I-29 and fast-frequency electric busses from KCI to Rivermarket for a lot less than the cost of this proposal if we can figure out how to cover the OpEx.

The Xiamen BRT, a 52km fully elevated BRT system that complements the Xiamen Metro. Sad they didn't figure out BRT passing lanes when they built it. Pics by 航空物语.

https://twitter.com/JRUrbaneNetwork/sta ... 3944845747

[GRID]

Been saying that for years (decades actually) Jblanco.

KCI Needs a high quality bus route to downtown. That's it. It would be far cheaper and probably be used by more people. These numbers are insane to run high level metro like transit to KCI through a suburban low density suburban county of 100,000 people.

Something like that could even be in place prior to the World Cup.

Then start building a LRT line in the dense parts of the city south of the river for the other 20 miles, probably for 2 billion or so since that alone will be a very difficult challenge and take 10-15 years to build.

I have no idea what they are thinking with this 10 billion dollar number or the type of transit they are thinking of using.

[DMNBT_RCJH]

I have a lot of questions but firstly this partnership seems better than no partnership of course.

It's a typical all talk-no action Democrat shit sandwich.
Buttigizz is an incompetent boob, our infrastructure is worse off than ever before.

You're completely insufferable. At least this administration managed to actually pass a (bipartisan) infrastructure spending bill, unlike the last which talked about it every other month but then never did anything. As an aside, our infrastructure debt has likely not grown above trend in the past 2.5 years. Such a clearly jaded perspective on which party is actually appropriating funds to infrastructure is counterproductive to continuing to actually try to get shit done in this country. If everything is a zero-sum game, all the time, then there is no incentive to compromise and work across the aisle...which is where we are already at.

That said, light rail to KCI from Downtown does not make much sense unless you add about 50K more residents to the urban corridor + two more F500 HQ's + 5-6 more yearly Kubota Sized Conventions in the next fifteen years...which is not looking likely given demographic trends in this country.

[bspecht]

New RFP issued today. Contract to be awarded in May.

The Rapid Transportation from Airport to Downtown project is poised to revolutionize public transit in Kansas City by evaluating various rapid transportation options, such as Bus Rapid Transit (BRT), heavy rail, light rail, and automatic/autonomous shuttle systems. This comprehensive evaluation will consider factors such as feasibility, cost, timelines, infrastructure requirements, environmental impact, and integration potential with existing transit systems. The ultimate goal is to provide a clear comparison of the benefits, challenges, and opportunities associated with each alternative, supporting the City's decision-making in line with its long-term vision for an efficient, sustainable, and inclusive robust rapid transit system.

https://kcmo.bonfirehub.com/opportunities/122959

[langosta]

Feels like a waste to have KCMO and KCATA studying and pursuing this separately. Yet, the KCATA plan of express busses from the airport to everywhere is a joke so I get why KCMO is doing this on their own.

[bspecht]

KCATA/MARC study is out. https://www.marc.org/news/transportatio ... s-services

The transit services plan evaluated the demand for transit access to KCI across the entire Kansas City region, and local and express bus service alternatives based on the following factors: travel time competitiveness, planning-level costs, and assessment of potential ridership. Of the options evaluated, the plan recommends initial express bus services along two corridors:

- Downtown Kansas City, Missouri, with pick-up/drop-off locations at Union Station or the Convention Center area with additional connections to the East Village Transit Center.
- Johnson County, with potential interim stops in Kansas City, Kansas, to connect with existing bus service on State Avenue.

[smh]

Thanks for keeping us posted on this!

[Cratedigger]

Thanks for keeping us posted on this!

Agreed!

Found this chart very interesting

[dnweava]

They only studied only running a bus once every 30 or 60 minutes? What a joke. Should have at least studied a frequency of every 15 or 20 minutes...

Literally nobody is interested in riding a bus that only runs once an hour, what a waste of money studying that.

[alejandro46]

Thanks for keeping us posted on this!

Agreed!

Found this chart very interesting

MSP punching far above its weight.

[shinatoo]

Thanks for keeping us posted on this!

Agreed!

Found this chart very interesting

MSP punching far above its weight.

Helps when your airport is in-between downtown and the busiest mall in America.

[msmith011]

Culturally and politically, MSP is a highly progressive metro. People are more money conscious and and environmentally friendly than the average American. I'd also like to point out they have many major companies headquartered on or near the light rail line, including U.S. Bank, Target, Ameriprise, etc. Tons of corporate travel.