Are downtown apartment occupancy rapidly trending down?

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
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beautyfromashes
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Re: Are downtown apartment occupancy rapidly trending down?

Post by beautyfromashes » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:21 pm

brewcrew1000 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:09 pm
beautyfromashes wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:27 pm
We are seeing a change in the tastes for people in this city. It will continue for many, many decades...generations. Right now, recruiters who bring in professionals with kids to work in the city will likely push those people to houses in Johnson County or the Northland. They will say they have the best schools and are “safe”. There will come a point where this will change and central neighborhoods will be the most desirable. The suburbs will decline. DT will be the desired location for commerce and high end jobs. It will take a long time, but the trend has already started.
I agree with this. I know someone who is moving here in a couple weeks from North Dakota to work at KC Art Insitute. They were told repeatly by co-workers, friends, family to avoid living in the area right around KCAI and that they should look on the Kansas Side.
The city should have a meeting with all the recruiting departments in this city, especially those DT and sell them on the benefits of living in the city. Encourage them to promote urban housing and explain the many, many benefits for incoming transplant employees. Explain to them that the old narrative of there not being good schools in the core is a complete fallacy now. It might do more to benefit the city than any TIF project.

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Re: Are downtown apartment occupancy rapidly trending down?

Post by normalthings » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:26 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:21 pm
brewcrew1000 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:09 pm
beautyfromashes wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:27 pm
We are seeing a change in the tastes for people in this city. It will continue for many, many decades...generations. Right now, recruiters who bring in professionals with kids to work in the city will likely push those people to houses in Johnson County or the Northland. They will say they have the best schools and are “safe”. There will come a point where this will change and central neighborhoods will be the most desirable. The suburbs will decline. DT will be the desired location for commerce and high end jobs. It will take a long time, but the trend has already started.
I agree with this. I know someone who is moving here in a couple weeks from North Dakota to work at KC Art Insitute. They were told repeatly by co-workers, friends, family to avoid living in the area right around KCAI and that they should look on the Kansas Side.
The city should have a meeting with all the recruiting departments in this city, especially those DT and sell them on the benefits of living in the city. Encourage them to promote urban housing and explain the many, many benefits for incoming transplant employees. Explain to them that the old narrative of there not being good schools in the core is a complete fallacy now. It might do more to benefit the city than any TIF project.
You would honestly have to convince a lot of city staff that first. I’ve heard a number of relatively seasoned, mid level and higher employees express some pretty negative opinions on the core, streetcar, development in downtown.

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Re: Are downtown apartment occupancy rapidly trending down?

Post by beautyfromashes » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:56 pm

normalthings wrote: You would honestly have to convince a lot of city staff that first. I’ve heard a number of relatively seasoned, mid level and higher employees express some pretty negative opinions on the core, streetcar, development in downtown.
Then someone should clean house. And, no, I’m not kidding.

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Re: Are downtown apartment occupancy rapidly trending down?

Post by flyingember » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:08 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:56 pm
normalthings wrote: You would honestly have to convince a lot of city staff that first. I’ve heard a number of relatively seasoned, mid level and higher employees express some pretty negative opinions on the core, streetcar, development in downtown.
Then someone should clean house. And, no, I’m not kidding.
They dramatically underpay so it's hard to find better employees. It's like working in a diner off the Interstate. The manager is the person who's willing to do the work for less pay and no one else wants the job, they instead take their experience and leave for fancy restaurants that pay 20% more.

About a year ago I applied for a job and got an interview with them. They delayed filling the role. I ended up with multiple officers and they were all above their wage ceiling.

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Re: Are downtown apartment occupancy rapidly trending down?

Post by beautyfromashes » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:12 pm

^ and I’d imagine the quality of work you get for the underpaid position is inferior due to the fact of underpaying?

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Re: Are downtown apartment occupancy rapidly trending down?

Post by flyingember » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:18 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:12 pm
^ and I’d imagine the quality of work you get for the underpaid position is inferior due to the fact of underpaying?
It probably depends on the role. I would argue the front line employees do a good job and any limitations are caused by the policies in place.

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Re: Are downtown apartment occupancy rapidly trending down?

Post by normalthings » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:37 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:56 pm
normalthings wrote: You would honestly have to convince a lot of city staff that first. I’ve heard a number of relatively seasoned, mid level and higher employees express some pretty negative opinions on the core, streetcar, development in downtown.
Then someone should clean house. And, no, I’m not kidding.
Would have to offer better pay/benefits to recruit quality, urban minded employees from across the country.

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Re: Are downtown apartment occupancy rapidly trending down?

Post by beautyfromashes » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:32 pm

normalthings wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:37 pm
Would have to offer better pay/benefits to recruit quality, urban minded employees from across the country.
I guess I’m out of touch in this one. What’s a department manager make? 80k? 100?

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Re: Are downtown apartment occupancy rapidly trending down?

Post by missingkc » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:13 pm

I don't think you can really discuss this without considering metropolitan job growth and metropolitan population growth, not just downtown job growth and downtown population growth. I'd also like to hear some discussion of how successful KC's focus on 1) entrepreneurship/startups and 2) Richard Florida's Creative Class concept have been for KC job and population growth.

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Re: Are downtown apartment occupancy rapidly trending down?

Post by missingkc » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:13 pm

Also, when it comes to M&A involving KC companies, why does KC, more often than not, wind up on the losing end? Informix goes to CA, Embarq goes to Monroe, Louisiana(!) based Centurytel, Sprint goes to Bellevue. Those are tech companies, but over and over again we see this happen. KC has been bled dry of headquarters offices. I think it was due, not so much to actual economic conditions, as to attitudes toward KC, even by those living here. I'd like to think that is changing, yet, Sprint is gone. Bellevue wins. Seems there was never a fight for KC. I compare this with Charlotte, where I live. NCNB always brought the headquarters home to Charlotte through mergers with banks in Atlanta, Miami, and San Fransisco. I think it was through sheer dint of will. KC businesses seem to lack that when they enter into M/A.

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Re: Are downtown apartment occupancy rapidly trending down?

Post by FangKC » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:50 pm

I think Cerner and AMC Theaters are probably the only local companies that have regularly acquired other businesses.

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Re: Are downtown apartment occupancy rapidly trending down?

Post by aknowledgeableperson » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:02 am

"I've asked this a number of times, to a number of different people, but is there actually a hard-and-fast, golden ratio for hotel rooms:convention space?"

Unless things have changed over the years there is no golden ratio. There are many factors involved in the decision making process for conventions. Yes, you want hotel rooms and yes, you want them close to the facility but if everything works out a convention will make it work IF it wants to come here or to any other city. The city has lost some big ones in the past but multiple factors were involved. Some major, some minor.

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Re: Are downtown apartment occupancy rapidly trending down?

Post by aknowledgeableperson » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:07 am

missingkc wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:13 pm
Also, when it comes to M&A involving KC companies, why does KC, more often than not, wind up on the losing end? Informix goes to CA, Embarq goes to Monroe, Louisiana(!) based Centurytel, Sprint goes to Bellevue. Those are tech companies, but over and over again we see this happen. KC has been bled dry of headquarters offices. I think it was due, not so much to actual economic conditions, as to attitudes toward KC, even by those living here. I'd like to think that is changing, yet, Sprint is gone. Bellevue wins. Seems there was never a fight for KC. I compare this with Charlotte, where I live. NCNB always brought the headquarters home to Charlotte through mergers with banks in Atlanta, Miami, and San Fransisco. I think it was through sheer dint of will. KC businesses seem to lack that when they enter into M/A.
I think you will find that when a Kansas City area business is involved in a merger or acquisition the KC company is the lesser of the two companies. And being the lesser does not put the KC company in the driver's seat of where the company is located.

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Re: Are downtown apartment occupancy rapidly trending down?

Post by aknowledgeableperson » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:16 am

flyingember wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:08 pm
beautyfromashes wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:56 pm
normalthings wrote: You would honestly have to convince a lot of city staff that first. I’ve heard a number of relatively seasoned, mid level and higher employees express some pretty negative opinions on the core, streetcar, development in downtown.
Then someone should clean house. And, no, I’m not kidding.
They dramatically underpay so it's hard to find better employees. It's like working in a diner off the Interstate. The manager is the person who's willing to do the work for less pay and no one else wants the job, they instead take their experience and leave for fancy restaurants that pay 20% more.

About a year ago I applied for a job and got an interview with them. They delayed filling the role. I ended up with multiple officers and they were all above their wage ceiling.
It has been quite a few years since working for the city but things haven't really changed. The budget is tight and that tends to limit any large pay increases. Also, there was a wage freeze for a few years a little over 10 years ago and from what I have heard the future wage increases after that haven't overcome that freeze. Also, the city usually has a better benefit package than many employers but it seems many would rather have a larger takehome pay than more benefits.

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Re: Are downtown apartment occupancy rapidly trending down?

Post by im2kull » Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:31 pm

GRID wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:23 pm
im2kull wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:08 pm
GRID wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:59 pm
That article states that One and Two light are only around 80% occupied and some of other new properties are pretty low. This could be a main reason for Three Light taking so long to get off the ground.
Three Light hasn't gotten off the ground yet because of the idiocy that the city council pulled in renegading on their end of the longstanding contract with Cordish that began our DT revitalization. That's it.

Cordish has NO motivation to move forward on anything quickly now that the city council has decided to bring politics into the mix. Cordish has been doing us a great favor, and for the council to shit on them that way surely upset their ownership. Why do any kind of favors for someone who doesn't appreciate them?

Three light was READY to break ground.. but the council playing games made Cordish decided to delay that at least a year. We're lucky they didn't just scrap the whole project, and if they weren't just weeks away from the original groundbreaking, then they would have scrapped Three Light.
Then the market is not ready. Didn't the city basically give Cordish a 20 million dollar garage plus a bunch of other incentives for that tower? I mean that doesn't make Cordish bust out the cranes, what will? Cordish has every reason to build that tower now. They are getting some of the best incentives any city in the country would give a developer, they are building residential which will help support their own P&L district. If they still can't make the numbers work then something is wrong. It may be the price point. Is KC ready for another high end residential tower? I just wonder if they are getting cold feet. I'm surprised One light is down to 80% already.
Nobody said that Cordish "Can't make the numbers work". What I said was that Cordish is PISSED that the council jerked them around, and are willing to wait to build Three (Or scuttle some of their previously solid future KC plans altogether) as retribution for the idiotic move the council pulled in renegading on a long standing, legally binding contract. BECAUSE the numbers do work Cordish is in no rush to build anything. They simply don't have to. Billionaires care more about being slighted and getting revenge than spending a few million to gain a few million. They're already rich, and they know it.

Play stupid games, get stupid rewards. Thank your council for this. Without their political antics Three Light would already be halfway done and Four and Five would be breaking ground. 13th would be gaining it's long sought after vertical addition. And that spec space you mentioned... Yep.. That too.

Cordish could care less about KC now.

It's one thing to play politics before any agreements are made, but it's another to question the validity and needs for adherence to a contract years after the fact. Imagine if KC taxpayers suddenly decided to stop paying taxes... Just because. I'm pretty sure the city wouldn't just let those folks go without collection or punishment. This really isn't a hard concept to understand. It's not rocket science. You say you're going to do something and you sign an agreement to do so, then you do it. No If's, and, or's, butt's.

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Re: Are downtown apartment occupancy rapidly trending down?

Post by normalthings » Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:20 pm

im2kull wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:31 pm
GRID wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:23 pm
im2kull wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:08 pm


Three Light hasn't gotten off the ground yet because of the idiocy that the city council pulled in renegading on their end of the longstanding contract with Cordish that began our DT revitalization. That's it.

Cordish has NO motivation to move forward on anything quickly now that the city council has decided to bring politics into the mix. Cordish has been doing us a great favor, and for the council to shit on them that way surely upset their ownership. Why do any kind of favors for someone who doesn't appreciate them?

Three light was READY to break ground.. but the council playing games made Cordish decided to delay that at least a year. We're lucky they didn't just scrap the whole project, and if they weren't just weeks away from the original groundbreaking, then they would have scrapped Three Light.
Then the market is not ready. Didn't the city basically give Cordish a 20 million dollar garage plus a bunch of other incentives for that tower? I mean that doesn't make Cordish bust out the cranes, what will? Cordish has every reason to build that tower now. They are getting some of the best incentives any city in the country would give a developer, they are building residential which will help support their own P&L district. If they still can't make the numbers work then something is wrong. It may be the price point. Is KC ready for another high end residential tower? I just wonder if they are getting cold feet. I'm surprised One light is down to 80% already.
Nobody said that Cordish "Can't make the numbers work". What I said was that Cordish is PISSED that the council jerked them around, and are willing to wait to build Three (Or scuttle some of their previously solid future KC plans altogether) as retribution for the idiotic move the council pulled in renegading on a long standing, legally binding contract. BECAUSE the numbers do work Cordish is in no rush to build anything. They simply don't have to. Billionaires care more about being slighted and getting revenge than spending a few million to gain a few million. They're already rich, and they know it.

Play stupid games, get stupid rewards. Thank your council for this. Without their political antics Three Light would already be halfway done and Four and Five would be breaking ground. 13th would be gaining it's long sought after vertical addition. And that spec space you mentioned... Yep.. That too.

Cordish could care less about KC now.

It's one thing to play politics before any agreements are made, but it's another to question the validity and needs for adherence to a contract years after the fact. Imagine if KC taxpayers suddenly decided to stop paying taxes... Just because. I'm pretty sure the city wouldn't just let those folks go without collection or punishment. This really isn't a hard concept to understand. It's not rocket science. You say you're going to do something and you sign an agreement to do so, then you do it. No If's, and, or's, butt's.
It’s not even like there was a significant uproar against the incentives. We were on the brink of some transformative developments 14 years in the making. Now Cordish is going big in STL while 3-4 Light, the hotel, etc have been killed or put on the very far back burner.

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Re: Are downtown apartment occupancy rapidly trending down?

Post by im2kull » Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:27 pm

normalthings wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:20 pm
It’s not even like there was a significant uproar against the incentives. We were on the brink of some transformative developments 14 years in the making. Now Cordish is going big in STL while 3-4 Light, the hotel, etc have been killed or put on the very far back burner.
Yep. There's no denying that this is the price we pay for our council playing politics.

They screwed us, and ruined our relationship with Cordish.

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Re: Are downtown apartment occupancy rapidly trending down?

Post by gfenn11 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:01 pm

I participated in the Downtown Dazzle tours today. While at Two Light the company rep was still stating that Three Light/The Midland Apt's are still on track for a groundbreaking in early 2019. No specifics given or anything.

Thoughts on the tours:
Two Light is immensely better/nicer than One Light. Just walking in the hallways at 1L it seems like you're in a hotel whereas the hallways of 2L have nice character. Apartments are near the same but I couldn't help but notice the $2,500 1BR w/ Den had the same carpet and other items as my sub $1K apartment. Clearly amenities make up for it and whatnot, but still small things like that stick out to me.

The Grand was very nice as well! I loved the interiors there as well as the views/Amenities!

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