KCRag Forum

Does anyone do modern trolly cars that could be hop on hop off, or has ADA and other government regulations killed that?

earthling wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:48 pm I'm pretty sure there'd be no Federal aid if not enough existing density, that is I don't think they provide funding for speculative future density. A balanced approach is to do BRT/MAX where it makes sense with same level boarding stops as streetcar and then upgrade to streetcar in future if/when density justifies it.

And we can't compare to original streetcar system as the operational costs are now far higher relative to ridership.

Just for my knowledge, where does it say that "area for transit must have a population density of xxx ppl/per square mile? What about St Louis Metro, many of their extensions are in low density areas. Same with South Mountain extension for Phoenix. Relatively low density, SFH and small shops south of Phoenix downtown got federal funding - both had local match.

shinatoo wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:17 pm Does anyone do modern trolly cars that could be hop on hop off, or has ADA and other government regulations killed that?

Like this? No, thanks.

alejandro46 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:25 pm

earthling wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:48 pm I'm pretty sure there'd be no Federal aid if not enough existing density, that is I don't think they provide funding for speculative future density. A balanced approach is to do BRT/MAX where it makes sense with same level boarding stops as streetcar and then upgrade to streetcar in future if/when density justifies it.

And we can't compare to original streetcar system as the operational costs are now far higher relative to ridership.

Just for my knowledge, where does it say that "area for transit must have a population density of xxx ppl/per square mile? What about St Louis Metro, many of their extensions are in low density areas. Same with South Mountain extension for Phoenix. Relatively low density, SFH and small shops south of Phoenix downtown got federal funding - both had local match.

It's a complex formula and depends on the path you choose and the entire corridor project is assessed. Job/residential density -- which usually translates to ridership -- is one component. Our starter line went the TIGER (now RAISE) grant path and didn't have to prove that. The Main Street Extension went the New Starts path -- which accepts larger projects -- and had to really show their math.

The math was very different in the 90s when the initial MetroLink segment was built. Lengthy extensions into Illinois might have been locally funded or earmarked. Their last extension (Cross County) was 100% locally funded because it didn't qualify for funding.

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 7:18 pm

alejandro46 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 2:25 pm

earthling wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:48 pm I'm pretty sure there'd be no Federal aid if not enough existing density, that is I don't think they provide funding for speculative future density. A balanced approach is to do BRT/MAX where it makes sense with same level boarding stops as streetcar and then upgrade to streetcar in future if/when density justifies it.

And we can't compare to original streetcar system as the operational costs are now far higher relative to ridership.

Just for my knowledge, where does it say that "area for transit must have a population density of xxx ppl/per square mile? What about St Louis Metro, many of their extensions are in low density areas. Same with South Mountain extension for Phoenix. Relatively low density, SFH and small shops south of Phoenix downtown got federal funding - both had local match.

The math was very different in the 90s when the initial MetroLink segment was built. Lengthy extensions into Illinois might have been locally funded or earmarked. Their last extension (Cross County) was 100% locally funded because it didn't qualify for funding.

I think that is right. Their under-construction extension is 100% local/state and the North/South line has never advanced, despite local approvals, because they can't get a federal match.

IIRC, KC's 90s and early 2000s LRT attempts involved 80% federal and 20% state/local capital

Isn’t the counter-argument to all this that you thereby need the streetcar to create more density if we’re lacking it?

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 10:28 pm Isn’t the counter-argument to all this that you thereby need the streetcar to create more density if we’re lacking it?

You can create density without streetcar. Look at OP!

This is what NKC line should look like!

normalthings wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 1:44 am

This is what NKC line should look like!

Center running or bust!

^ God that would have been amazing vs a curb running bus on rail in a traffic lane.

Had KC passed the vote to build that, it would be expanded by now and by 2030 would likely have reached KCI, KS Suburbs, Lee's Summit etc.

KC would have a full blown legit transit system.

There's still time!

John Ivy and Bill Nigro (of Westport fame) have some interesting comments at the last KCATA board meeting.

Public Comment
Mr. John Ivy stated that he would like to see KCATA be in control of the Kansas City airport instead of KCMO. He advised he is friends with Bill Nigro who couldn’t be here today but would like the to KCATA begin running party bus lines for the public as it is necessary for tourism. He then spoke about the KCATA bought the 17.5 miles of Railroad with that Jackson County and now it’s time for KCATA to begin building some light rail on that line. Lots of things could be built along that line. He stated if there are any questions, he will leave his card.

What 17.5 miles of railroad line is he talking about? If it goes anywhere worthwhile, sure since that helped St. Louis MetroLink get going. If it goes no where, then I'm not sure if it'll be worth it.

Chris Stritzel wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 6:44 pm What 17.5 miles of railroad line is he talking about? If it goes anywhere worthwhile, sure since that helped St. Louis MetroLink get going. If it goes no where, then I'm not sure if it'll be worth it.

From the west of Linwood blvd close Ish to VA hospital through Truman Sports Complex on to downtown Raytown and then Lees Summit.

I guess the northern end is technically yhe i70 bridge of blue river?

The Rock Island ROW? I thought the county owned that? There is (maybe still, unsure) some type of ROW going north at least SOMEWHAT close to the airport that originally served as a route to St. Jo. Possible the ATA or City could explore that option?

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 8:00 pm The Rock Island ROW? I thought the county owned that? There is (maybe still, unsure) some type of ROW going north at least SOMEWHAT close to the airport that originally served as a route to St. Jo. Possible the ATA or City could explore that option?

Line creek ROW has been built on in some places and mostly bypasses areas where development have occurwd in northland. Not a good choice.

normalthings wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 8:10 pm

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 8:00 pm The Rock Island ROW? I thought the county owned that? There is (maybe still, unsure) some type of ROW going north at least SOMEWHAT close to the airport that originally served as a route to St. Jo. Possible the ATA or City could explore that option?

Line creek ROW has been built on in some places and mostly bypasses areas where development have occurwd in northland. Not a good choice.

Pity, given I’m in the camp that high quality direct BRT would be the best option

normalthings wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 7:45 pm

Chris Stritzel wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 6:44 pm What 17.5 miles of railroad line is he talking about? If it goes anywhere worthwhile, sure since that helped St. Louis MetroLink get going. If it goes no where, then I'm not sure if it'll be worth it.

From the west of Linwood blvd close Ish to VA hospital through Truman Sports Complex on to downtown Raytown and then Lees Summit.

I guess the northern end is technically yhe i70 bridge of blue river?

Seems like a waste really.

November KCATA Board Meeting. Community members came to open testimony asking for expanded light rail/transit system be studied. Yes Please!

John Ivy spoke to the Commissioners regarding KCATA having the bi-state authority to be in charge of the airport and building rail to the airport as well as east, passed the stadiums into Lees Summit, MO. Mr. Ivy also passed out literature regarding rail cooridor plan suggestions.

normalthings wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 5:04 pm November KCATA Board Meeting. Community members came to open testimony asking for expanded light rail/transit system be studied. Yes Please!

John Ivy spoke to the Commissioners regarding KCATA having the bi-state authority to be in charge of the airport and building rail to the airport as well as east, passed the stadiums into Lees Summit, MO. Mr. Ivy also passed out literature regarding rail cooridor plan suggestions.

Urban lab might very well have a fixed rail master plan in the works to present to the ATA & KCSA