Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Transportation topics in KC

What route should the third phase of streetcar expansion follow?

Linwood: Main to Michigan(71 Highway)
6
11%
Country Club ROW: UMKC to Brookside/Waldo
10
18%
Country Club ROW: UMKC through Brookside/Waldo to Prospect
10
18%
Linwood: Main to Emanuel Cleaver 2
5
9%
City/County Wide Rail Project
21
38%
Other
4
7%
 
Total votes: 56

shinatoo
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby shinatoo » Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:21 pm

I think I'll take Dave's word for it.

I didn't think the TDD was an option anymore with the vote to make all rail planning city wide. Am I off on that?
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flyingember
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby flyingember » Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:24 pm

shinatoo wrote:I think I'll take Dave's word for it.

I didn't think the TDD was an option anymore with the vote to make all rail planning city wide. Am I off on that?

NKC has a TDD on the books, never collected on.

It's known it's not enough value to fund the whole line though.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby alejandro46 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:56 pm

shinatoo wrote:I think I'll take Dave's word for it.

I didn't think the TDD was an option anymore with the vote to make all rail planning city wide. Am I off on that?


So, going by the below article, I guess a TDD could still be used for funding, but a citywide vote would still be required for the city's participation.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/politics ... 84184.html


Man, Sherry DeJanes really just hates Kansas City. We need to reform that petition process. 1% of the absolute minimum voter participation gets to decide the streetcar expansion approval process.

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grovester
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby grovester » Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:29 pm

The TDD method won't generate enough money in any other corridor in the city, so we didn't lose much by having to have a vote.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby DaveKCMO » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:53 am

flyingember wrote:
shinatoo wrote:I think I'll take Dave's word for it.

I didn't think the TDD was an option anymore with the vote to make all rail planning city wide. Am I off on that?

NKC has a TDD on the books, never collected on.

It's known it's not enough value to fund the whole line though.


The point is that NKC leadership is NOT talking seriously about streetcar right now. They had to be coaxed out of dismantling the TDD.

And you are actually correct that the 1/2-cent TDD sales tax wouldn't cover the cost of building or operating their segment of streetcar.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby alejandro46 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:56 am

DaveKCMO wrote:
flyingember wrote:
shinatoo wrote:I think I'll take Dave's word for it.

I didn't think the TDD was an option anymore with the vote to make all rail planning city wide. Am I off on that?

NKC has a TDD on the books, never collected on.

It's known it's not enough value to fund the whole line though.


The point is that NKC leadership is NOT talking seriously about streetcar right now. They had to be coaxed out of dismantling the TDD.

And you are actually correct that the 1/2-cent TDD sales tax wouldn't cover the cost of building or operating their segment of streetcar.


Right, that is the conclusion of the NorthRail study, if I recall. Absolutely feasible to build a NKC spur, but funding model is the issue especially factoring in cost to cross the bridge. and lack of population + lots of industrial buildings who would likely very much not be in favor of the previously used TDD assessments/sales tax district.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby normalthings » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:41 am

Would it be possible to create TDD for BRT?

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby DaveKCMO » Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:39 pm

ldai_phs wrote:Would it be possible to create TDD for BRT?


To build, but not operate. Another strange fluke of the TDD Act.

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normalthings
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby normalthings » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:49 am

Have read a number of comments of twitter/Facebook saying “we need to build LR for the World Cup”. Hopefully World Cup fever and a wider desire for public transit will help regional rail efforts.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby WoodDraw » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:07 am

That's silly. We need temporary brt if we win. Rail to the stadium isn't sustainable at this time.

The best thing KC could do right now is rebrand a bus as an airport shuttle. Bright colors, AC, WIFI, few stops. TV on board announcing stops and terminals.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby flyingember » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:29 am

WoodDraw wrote:That's silly. We need temporary brt if we win. Rail to the stadium isn't sustainable at this time.


Upgrade 101 or 106 permanently (one is planned, didn't check which) to BRT service

And then for the game you don't implement temp BRT, you implement express coach bus from select locations to move parking outwards. If you do it right you run the service for a month before to work out kinks and actually operate it for commuters during this time.

Have terminuses such as Oak Park Mall, downtown, the airport and such.

What you gain is knowledge of it people will use such a service if it's available and use the world cup to fund the research

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby shinatoo » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:56 am

BRT to the airport. Call it the "KCI Flyer".
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby DaveKCMO » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:13 am

From the Biz Journal article:

In the long term, James said he hoped to see an east-west extension in the streetcar’s future, as was proposed in 2014. Voters rejected the larger effort to extend the streetcar to the Country Club Plaza, as well as east on Independence Avenue and Linwood Boulevard.

“It's a starter line. It was never envisioned to be a finished line,” James said. “And we have to go east. It's a matter of economic equity, but also a matter of connecting this city in ways that we don't normally do.”

Gerend said two likely cross streets with east-west potential would be Independence Avenue and 39th Street, which are served by Main Street MAX buses.

"When we talk about future extensions, we need to be equitable in how we extend it," James said. "It won't be easy. But it's absolutely essential."

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby tower » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:25 am

DaveKCMO wrote:From the Biz Journal article:

In the long term, James said he hoped to see an east-west extension in the streetcar’s future, as was proposed in 2014. Voters rejected the larger effort to extend the streetcar to the Country Club Plaza, as well as east on Independence Avenue and Linwood Boulevard.

“It's a starter line. It was never envisioned to be a finished line,” James said. “And we have to go east. It's a matter of economic equity, but also a matter of connecting this city in ways that we don't normally do.”

Gerend said two likely cross streets with east-west potential would be Independence Avenue and 39th Street, which are served by Main Street MAX buses.

"When we talk about future extensions, we need to be equitable in how we extend it," James said. "It won't be easy. But it's absolutely essential."


I've always thought that 39th makes the most sense for an east-west midtown street (and it can be more light rail-ish as it gets further east and go to the stadiums), but i have never seen it mentioned before and assumed there was a feasibility issue with the Gillham park hill or something.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby DaveKCMO » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:42 am

It's never been studied and that hill might be an issue, although it was there when the previous streetcar system was in place.

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby tower » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:39 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:It's never been studied and that hill might be an issue, although it was there when the previous streetcar system was in place.


Using the cycling route elevation feature on google maps, it looks like Warwick to Gilliam is a 4.7% gradient, about the same as the Pershing to 30th gradient on Main. Locust to the tennis courts looks to be closer to an 11% grade though, which is not unprecedented, but is very high, especially in mixed traffic with a stop sign at the bottom of the hill. I think the Gillham to Kenwood is about 8% I think.

I have no idea how trustworthy the cycling route elevation feature on google maps is though, so I could be way off.

Edit: I was able to find a streetview of a 14.5% tram gradient in Libson, Portugal, but our vehicles look a bit heavier.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7089053 ... 312!8i6656

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby flyingember » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:57 pm

Was told in the past they would handle the hill up N Oak part NE 32nd

Compare to that for grade

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby voltopt » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:09 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:It's never been studied and that hill might be an issue, although it was there when the previous streetcar system was in place.



I'm looking for evidence, and it appears 39th Street has never featured a streetcar east of Main. I could be wrong. The 39th Street streetcar line seems to have extended only from Rainbow to Main. This makes sense, considering that 39th is mostly low density residential going east from Main, except where it intersects former n/s streetcar routes (Troost, Woodland, Brooklyn, Prospect, and Indiana) (also, the Brooklyn intersection is pretty much eradicated, but there is some commercial density remaining at the other n/s nodes)

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby voltopt » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:28 pm

That's not to say the grade is too steep for streetcar.

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Eon Blue
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Postby Eon Blue » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:56 am

According to this 1925 atlas, there were turning wyes at Prospect and Indiana on those lines. There was no through service east of main, though.

http://www.historicmapworks.com/Atlas/U ... City+1925/


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