KCRag Forum

So the city has proposed decommissioning the North Loop and turning it into an area for redevelopment.

Other successful projects like this have been in San Francisco (most notably), Seattle, Boston and a few other cities. There seems to be a direct correlation between the economic vitality of an urban area, and the lack of dividing highways cutting through it.

A recent discussion on Reddit about US-71 brought to mind that, in my opinion, despite being only 16 years old now, the Bruce R Watkins Drive spur of US-71 really should also be decommissioned and turned into a Boulevard or Parkway. Right now it's trying to be a horrid, inefficient mix of highway and parkway that really just divides the poor neighborhoods from the wealthy.

I love the "convenience" of US-71, but I am willingness to sacrifice my personal convenience for better urban development, connectivity and economic activity.

This really should be a critical point of discussion in the city if they are serious about encouraging development East of US-71.

Until there is something like commuter rail to bring in workers from the burbs, taking away North Loop may be a risky move. It's difficult enough attracting companies to consider moving downtown. Capping both N and S loops make more sense.

You need to start installing commuter rail before you remove the north loop.

Adding 50k northlanders that all connect downtown to elsewhere past downtown means the north loop is in line for a widening without comprehensive rail service. The alternative is to take 435 or 635 to the suburbs, and not work downtown, and that hasn't worked so well.
I would start with a true BRT route with it's own lane on 29, 169 and 35 to gauge interest for rail. Build first the direction that takes to transit the most. The concrete may not be needed for rail, but the ground prep could be reused.

Bruce R Watkins is the direct route for people from SE who could otherwise work in JoCo to work at the Plaza or downtown. It's not a great road, but removing it could mean losing thousands of jobs to KS. I would replace it with closer to a parkway AND commuter rail in the same ROW.
In this case, starting with a dedicated lane true BRT line would be a good starting point too.

No, you can get rid of the north loop and funnel it to the south loop while hopefully planning some rail.

I want to see Beyond the Loop's traffic study. I would guess that most of north loop's traffic is either local (as in they're getting on or off downtown) which can just make use of a better designed Independence/6th or is thru traffic that can easily be moved to the south loop or shouldn't be going through downtown in the first place.

Like: could we move non-local I-35 traffic to 435 or 635 and avoid downtown all-together?

There's four categories

1. local traffic bypassing other roads because the freeway is quicker. This is the idea of the road hierarchy. This is traffic we need to remove from downtown by offering better options, like improved transit, safe biking and amenities closer so nearby doesn't need to drive. It's the hardest to remove because implementing alternatives are costly relative to the benefit of doing nothing.

2. through traffic long distance, like Iowa to Wichita. this is the easiest to remove.

The last two are the big deal categories.

3. local traffic going past downtown. think someone going Liberty to OP or Blue Springs to KCK
This one might not be easy to detour. You can't send all northland to KCK traffic onto less lanes without creating a new problem

4. destination traffic. This is your worker that today is going from Liberty to downown, your maintenance vehicle, your delivery truck heading to one of the businesses around downtown. Many of these people can find alternatives, but you have to carefully consider the routes

The core problem is today the route with the least chance to create congestion is the north loop. It's all because the worst ramps are on the east loop and the south loop has one workable exit into downtown both directions and there's lane drops and all the way across merging and getting to the west loop can't be done from the west and is stupid dangerous from the east. Moving I-35 to the south loop means merging all the way across today. The more merging the slower traffic goes and the quicker people decide to find a job that's not downtown. US 71 between 22nd and the loop is three lanes wide. It goes 25mph tops because there's onramp traffic trying to go all the way left. Imagine this every day downtown on every route in.

The solution is easy, take people out of their cars with a suburban to suburban rail system. Install a local parkway or access to the north side of downtown. Force through traffic onto 435 and 635. It's not just about commuters, it's looking at every possible use and finding an alternative, from the FedEx truck to the hotel airport van.

Removal is 100% a great idea, but removal is not the first step needed, it's nearly the last.

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^seconded. Just do it. Commuters will adjust.

Waiting for a new transit option guarantees it never happens.

Theoretically, you're correct

Practically speaking it means two things would happen

1. people will move to where the jobs are today. If we did this in KC there will be a massive drain of population from east and north to JoCo
2. jobs will move away from JoCo and closer to where people are today.

Houses are easier to build than 10-story office towers. I bet the disparity to KS would be 5:1 to 10:1

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pash wrote:The long-term outcome would likely be what we see in cities that never bulldozed highways through the urban core, and where it is consequently much less convenient to get from one suburb to another: fewer jobs in the suburbs and more in the center.

That's a logical fallacy

You can't force employers to move as if the past 50 years never happened.

With 45% of metro jobs on the KS side, I think we would find population would mostly level out where the jobs are today, with some exceptions. Your areas with few professional jobs would head for where they are today.

It's way easier to move to your job than to drive a couple hours for the interim and hope you can find a new one where there aren't many in your field today.

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It's true, once you close the north loop, the only viable alternative across town will be the Santa Fe Trail.

pash wrote:The long-term outcome would likely be what we see in cities that never bulldozed highways through the urban core, and where it is consequently much less convenient to get from one suburb to another: fewer jobs in the suburbs and more in the center.

The trouble is one cannot change the past. What we have now is what we have. Changing what we do have now doesn't mean you will get the desired change you envision. You just may have fewer jobs in the center since it will be harder to get into the center. If you don't have a ready alternative then the employer's alternative may be to locate where the workers live and the worker decide to find a job closer to home. Jobs that may be more plentiful in the suburbs than your desired outcome.

And a slightly different view.

Go ahead and get that north loop decommissioned and champion building something meaningful on it.
It just might turn out far better than you can imagine.

And while you're at it, would you please tell all those people from the suburbs to stop moving downtown.

loftguy wrote:
And while you're at it, would you please tell all those people from the suburbs to stop moving downtown.

Evidence says for everyone moving downtown 4-5x are moving to the suburbs.

JoCo had 3x the multifamily permits in 2016 than Jackson, and that's clearly the downtown category. KC is still at the point that development is skewed to the north.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/business ... 75708.html

UrbanKC wrote: A recent discussion on Reddit about US-71 brought to mind that, in my opinion, despite being only 16 years old now, the Bruce R Watkins Drive spur of US-71 really should also be decommissioned and turned into a Boulevard or Parkway. Right now it's trying to be a horrid, inefficient mix of highway and parkway that really just divides the poor neighborhoods from the wealthy.

I love the "convenience" of US-71, but I am willingness to sacrifice my personal convenience for better urban development, connectivity and economic activity.

This really should be a critical point of discussion in the city if they are serious about encouraging development East of US-71.

The section south of 75th St is going up to 65mph. It also carries as many cars as 435 does.

The Missouri Department of Transportation will raise the speed limit from 55 mph to 65 mph on U.S. 71 from about a half mile south of 75th Street to just north of the 3-Trails Crossing interchange.

...

About 80,000 vehicles pass through that section of U.S. 71. That’s compared to about 85,000 vehicles that head north I-435 from the 3-Trails Crossing.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/ar ... 8589.html=

aknowledgeableperson wrote:

pash wrote:The long-term outcome would likely be what we see in cities that never bulldozed highways through the urban core, and where it is consequently much less convenient to get from one suburb to another: fewer jobs in the suburbs and more in the center.

The trouble is one cannot change the past. What we have now is what we have. Changing what we do have now doesn't mean you will get the desired change you envision. You just may have fewer jobs in the center since it will be harder to get into the center. If you don't have a ready alternative then the employer's alternative may be to locate where the workers live and the worker decide to find a job closer to home. Jobs that may be more plentiful in the suburbs than your desired outcome.

The north loop is simply a short cut going from north to south or south to north around downtown. The sunken south portion of the loop has more, way more, capacity than needed to carry any excess from the north loop if that were to be closed. KC is the easiest commute of any city of over 2 million in the metro that I have ever been in and by some distance. It's simply not an issue.

And we change the past all the time - at remarkable scales. Look at German cities rebuilt to their original standards after the war. Go to Dresden and tell me you are not impressed with what was once a pile of rubble.

Highlander wrote:

aknowledgeableperson wrote:

pash wrote:The long-term outcome would likely be what we see in cities that never bulldozed highways through the urban core, and where it is consequently much less convenient to get from one suburb to another: fewer jobs in the suburbs and more in the center.

The trouble is one cannot change the past. What we have now is what we have. Changing what we do have now doesn't mean you will get the desired change you envision. You just may have fewer jobs in the center since it will be harder to get into the center. If you don't have a ready alternative then the employer's alternative may be to locate where the workers live and the worker decide to find a job closer to home. Jobs that may be more plentiful in the suburbs than your desired outcome.

The north loop is simply a short cut going from north to south or south to north around downtown. It's absence would be a slight annoyance to some, most would be unaware of its passing. The sunken south portion of the loop has more, way more, capacity than needed to carry any excess from the north loop if that were to be closed. KC is the easiest commute of any city of over 2 million in the metro that I have ever been in and by some distance. It's simply not an issue.

And we change the past all the time - at remarkable scales. Look at German cities rebuilt to their original standards after the war. Go to Dresden and tell me you are not impressed with what was once a pile of rubble.

Highlander wrote: The sunken south portion of the loop has more, way more, capacity than needed to carry any excess from the north loop if that were to be closed.

Ha!

It has the raw capacity, it's not designed well to take up N-S through traffic. It's all the merging.

The goal shouldn't be to just move traffic to a new road, it should be to shift it to another mode and make the capacity unnecessary.

This is why removing the freeway should be the last step done