KCRag Forum

Can we just run the Kempers out of town already?

I don't even know why Swope Community Developers is still involved with this project.

JBmidtown wrote:I have a complex question and I'm not sure anyone can answer it but...uh...why is every KC-based developer completely fucking brain dead?

Many of the development projects downtown that have been accomplished are financed outside of KC. The big local banks are too conservative in regards to making loans for downtown development. The Kemper banks won't even develop their own land.

kboish wrote:

JBmidtown wrote:I have a complex question and I'm not sure anyone can answer it but...uh...why is every KC-based developer completely fucking brain dead?

Conservative local banks and people with $$$...when developers say they are responding to the "market", they mean banks

But the answer is more complex than that. Kansas City for the most part has been dependent on outside money for development. True, Commerce and UMB are conservative but those banks can't fund everything. The Plaza area probably has had as much negative affect on downtown as JoCo. And for many years the city itself placed more interest in developing the highway up and around KCI than downtown. And even downtown interests were divided between those inside the loop and those outside.
And let's not forget the years downtown was held back by one individual, Stan Durwood.

The Plaza area probably has had as much negative affect on downtown as JoCo.

Disagree. Looking at office space alone, the lifeblood of a CBD, JoCo has created massively more square footage than plaza/midtown and the effect continues to depress the downtown market. Plaza is in no way comparable.

Per Newmark/Grubb/Zimmer:

Plaza/Midtown total office SF: 6,429,562

JoCo total office SF (north and south): 26,294,065

http://ngzimmer.com/sites/default/files ... Report.pdf

rxlexi wrote:

The Plaza area probably has had as much negative affect on downtown as JoCo.

Disagree. Looking at office space alone, the lifeblood of a CBD, JoCo has created massively more square footage than plaza/midtown and the effect continues to depress the downtown market. Plaza is in no way comparable.

Per Newmark/Grubb/Zimmer:

Plaza/Midtown total office SF: 6,429,562

JoCo total office SF (north and south): 26,294,065

http://ngzimmer.com/sites/default/files ... Report.pdf

I wasn't referring to square footage but to the alternate it give businesses where to locate in KC. Also the shopping and living options that were more prevalent in the Plaza area also had a negative effect.
And I might add Crown Center. Why? When Crown Center was initially developed the CC area was not considered to be in downtown, it was just outside of downtown. CC was considered to also be an alternate to downtown. Many of CC's first tenants, if memory is correct, came from inside the downtown loop.
Currently downtown is on an upswing but go back to the 70's and 80's the Plaza and Crown Center definitely had a more positive vibe, outlook and future than downtown.

Currently downtown is on an upswing but go back to the 70's and 80's the Plaza and Crown Center definitely had a more positive vibe, outlook and future than downtown.

Absolutely. But I would take issue with the opinion that these places have had anywhere near the detrimental effect on downtown that JoCo has had over the same time period.

And CC is well and truly a part of "downtown" at this point, and I would argue always has been, whether or not tenants have come out of the loop.

Back to the East Village - can't help but think if we're focused on low-rise, suburban form, and given the highway access, this is where you put your urban Target. Would be great to see something along the lines of the south Plaza Whole Foods - a small-footprint Target and garage wrapped with apartments. Placing a major demand generator there would also do wonders for the perception of "east of Grand", currently still no-man's land for most downtown residents (of course it's almost entirely parking lots and govt buildings).

"And CC is well and truly a part of "downtown" at this point, and I would argue always has been, "

The current area that is defined as downtown wasn't all defined as part of downtown back when CC was initially developed. Can't remember all of the details about it and when but it had something to do with economic/job creation incentives that were to be used for downtown areas. To take advantage of those as much as possible the city established the current boundaries that defines downtown.

My guess as to where Target would locate a store downtown would be the area of Union Station East Yards / Washington Square Park. The reason for that is that it's near other existing retail in CC (mostly Halls); it's on the streetcar/major bus lines; and a store could sit atop a large garage that might be build in the sub-grade area in the East Yards, and be part of a mixed use development.

Put it at 11th to 12th at Charlotte. For truck deliveries 670 has a direct exit from the east, from the west 70 gets off on 6th to Charlotte. 35 get off on The Paseo or 11th St. Being in the common redevelopment area it wouldn't be hard to include retail space in any planning.

It's at the proposed east village transit corridor meet up spot, so the entire east side has easy access by bus and all of downtown is no more than one transfer away, with the least distance traveled for the most people. It's really easy to get to by car from several areas. Charlotte connects to Columbus Park and east crossroads, is decently close to 18th and Vine.

It's close to Paseo West, and we need to prime that area for development way more than Crown Center.

FangKC wrote:My guess as to where Target would locate a store downtown would be the area of Union Station East Yards / Washington Square Park. The reason for that is that it's near other existing retail in CC (mostly Halls); it's on the streetcar/major bus lines; and a store could sit atop a large garage that might be build in the sub-grade area in the East Yards, and be part of a mixed use development.

A target would be so out of place in that location. I would assume that it would be right at the foot of where 4 light is supposed to be or directly north of the sprint center.

Will we ever get something out of this project? At least they could announce plans and then attract investors to specific portions of the project. Like show the master plan then give investors the ability to finance different sections

I think there is a project moving forward on the old J.E. Dunn site on E. 10th Street between Holmes and Charlotte. However, I don't know when they plan to break ground.

KCATA is building a transit center at 12th & Charlotte.

The first project planned by the two firms is a 180-unit apartment building and 270-space garage on the site of the old J.E. Dunn Construction headquarters at 10th and Holmes streets.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/ar ... oject.html

https://cityscenekc.com/vantrust-assume ... ment-area/

Is there any detailed info on the east village transit center? Honestly, if what is in those PDFs is all they have planned as a "master" plan, that's not very impressive. The KCATA should think a little bigger. It doesn't look any better than the tiny tenth and main transit center which barely passes for a transit center even though it's the biggest in the city. Downtown KC needs a real transit center, not just a half dozen pull-offs for a few buses to layover. A real transit center with room for a dozen or more buses, large shelters or fully covered, restrooms, a full service transit retail kiosk to get info, buy passes, some minor retail etc.

I know people don't like seeing other cities compared, but look at Charlotte's downtown bus transit center:


Orlando:


Las Vegas:


Something like this could really anchor the east village. KC's "transit centers" look like something you would find in a suburban mall parking lot. KC has a nice urban core bus system. Built a true transit hub for it.

Something like Orlando would be workable I'd think.

A rendering will be on view March 20: https://www.facebook.com/events/1442701675856314/

Don't think this is going to meet Grid's expectations

https://twitter.com/RideKCTransit/statu ... 2098778112

KCPowercat wrote:Don't think this is going to meet Grid's expectations

https://twitter.com/RideKCTransit/statu ... 2098778112

To be fair, it's a significant upgrade from 10th and Main (which has no indoor waiting area) and is currently a surface lot nestled against a freeway embankment and series of off-ramps. There are many lots to develop north and west of this site.

How they configure the bus staging (better signage) around the space will be the true success/failure of this IMO. I think it's fine but could have been a bit larger and have a cover over the whole thing where buses could stage underneath the overhang like shown in Orlando and Charlotte centers.