Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Transportation topics in KC
User avatar
FangKC
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 13181
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 10:02 pm
Location: Old Northeast -- Indian Mound

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by FangKC » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:45 am

Streetcar Authority Picks Outer Lanes of Main Street for Planned Extension

https://cityscenekc.com/streetcar-autho ... extension/

moderne
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4066
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:50 pm
Location: downtown

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by moderne » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:09 pm

31st has been chosen as the stop.

User avatar
smh
Hotel President
Hotel President
Posts: 3028
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:40 pm
Location: Central Loop

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:38 pm

I did not see much in the best lane analysis on delays associated with existing driveways. I.e., Starbucks and Roasterie queues.

Additionally, there are segments that will continue to lack a center turn lane which I think invites high speed merging/sideswipes of streetcar and continued rear end collisions of automobiles in the inside lane as exists today which is likely to impact streetcar as well.

Those are essentially my two remaining concerns. I'm also a little curious about how the streetcar handles the Main Street hill to Cleaver.

User avatar
GRID
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 14297
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by GRID » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:09 pm

https://cityscenekc.com/streetcar-autho ... extension/

According to that map, the streetcar will go into the country club right of way south of Cleaver. Does that mean it will be on its own bridge over Brush Creek?

User avatar
beautyfromashes
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4361
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by beautyfromashes » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:24 pm

^ and, does this assume that future expansion down Brookside Blvd would be on the Trolly Trail ROW instead of in the street as has been discussed?

User avatar
smh
Hotel President
Hotel President
Posts: 3028
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:40 pm
Location: Central Loop

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by smh » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:31 pm

GRID wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:09 pm
https://cityscenekc.com/streetcar-autho ... extension/

According to that map, the streetcar will go into the country club right of way south of Cleaver. Does that mean it will be on its own bridge over Brush Creek?
I can't imagine a new bridge is in budget. In the past the assumption was that it would likely double track on the east side of the existing bridge with a transition at Cleaver. However, the concept drawings now show it transitioning from outer running to center-running at 45th Street, with a center stop near Ward Parkway and the tennis center.

moderne
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4066
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:50 pm
Location: downtown

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by moderne » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:45 pm

Future expansion down Brookside on the Trolley Trail ROW? Another war with DeJanes to reclaim her Crimea annexation?

User avatar
DaveKCMO
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 16780
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:10 pm

No new bridge. CCROW south of Volker. Don't expect expansion south of 51st for a very long time. It's money thing.

User avatar
DaveKCMO
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 16780
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:32 am

https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... ation.html
The funds would be transferred from reserve money in the Downtown Transportation Development District (TDD), which was formed with the creation of the streetcar's starter line, with the condition that it will be reimbursed from the newly formed Main Street Rail TDD.

On Thursday, the authority received approval from its board to enter into an agreement with Kansas City and the Downtown TDD. However, both the TDD board and the city must approve the use of the funds.

flyingember
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 6962
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:44 am

DaveKCMO wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:32 am
https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... ation.html
The funds would be transferred from reserve money in the Downtown Transportation Development District (TDD), which was formed with the creation of the streetcar's starter line, with the condition that it will be reimbursed from the newly formed Main Street Rail TDD.

On Thursday, the authority received approval from its board to enter into an agreement with Kansas City and the Downtown TDD. However, both the TDD board and the city must approve the use of the funds.
Also
The KC Streetcar Authority plans to hold off on purchasing additional vehicles for the extensions until it receives word on its federal funding request. It will submit that request funding next month, and expects to find out the results in February.

flyingember
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 6962
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:52 am

DaveKCMO wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:10 pm
No new bridge. CCROW south of Volker. Don't expect expansion south of 51st for a very long time. It's money thing.
It would make more sense to cross the river to N 32nd next to reach more blue collar jobs in NKC or build an E-W downtown line from the bottoms to Paseo West

South is a good idea but should be on Troost since it has way more bus ridership today and would benefit more.

Ending this phase at UMKC is the smartest decision of this segment. I’m not sure I really see the train being successful south on Brookside without Wornall becoming way denser. N Oak is moving this direction already and it’s a hard segment to validate right now.

I would be for a new bridge but the current one is super wide and could hold the train easily

User avatar
normalthings
Alameda Tower
Alameda Tower
Posts: 1162
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by normalthings » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:46 pm

flyingember wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:52 am
DaveKCMO wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:10 pm
No new bridge. CCROW south of Volker. Don't expect expansion south of 51st for a very long time. It's money thing.
It would make more sense to cross the river to N 32nd next to reach more blue collar jobs in NKC or build an E-W downtown line from the bottoms to Paseo West

South is a good idea but should be on Troost since it has way more bus ridership today and would benefit more.

Ending this phase at UMKC is the smartest decision of this segment. I’m not sure I really see the train being successful south on Brookside without Wornall becoming way denser. N Oak is moving this direction already and it’s a hard segment to validate right now.

I would be for a new bridge but the current one is super wide and could hold the train easily
I highly recommend you read Next Rail and North Rail. NKC is proven pro transit and with their recent densification and renewal could be getting closer to the $$$$ needed for a line.(look at North rail for more details)

flyingember
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 6962
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by flyingember » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:29 am

normalthings wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:46 pm
flyingember wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:52 am
DaveKCMO wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:10 pm
No new bridge. CCROW south of Volker. Don't expect expansion south of 51st for a very long time. It's money thing.
It would make more sense to cross the river to N 32nd next to reach more blue collar jobs in NKC or build an E-W downtown line from the bottoms to Paseo West

South is a good idea but should be on Troost since it has way more bus ridership today and would benefit more.

Ending this phase at UMKC is the smartest decision of this segment. I’m not sure I really see the train being successful south on Brookside without Wornall becoming way denser. N Oak is moving this direction already and it’s a hard segment to validate right now.

I would be for a new bridge but the current one is super wide and could hold the train easily
I highly recommend you read Next Rail and North Rail. NKC is proven pro transit and with their recent densification and renewal could be getting closer to the $$$$ needed for a line.(look at North rail for more details)
I didn't post that in a vacuum. I went to the northrail public meetings. Here's my somewhat messy report from it

http://kcrag.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=18 ... 60#p526451

User avatar
DaveKCMO
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 16780
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by DaveKCMO » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:40 pm

Price went up due to market forces/tariffs and new federal requirements (30% contingency!): https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... quest.html

It's also now a New Starts instead of a Small Starts project, which means we can ask for more than $100 million from the feds.

User avatar
ToDactivist
Pad site
Pad site
Posts: 66
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:06 am

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by ToDactivist » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:31 am

Okay i've had it. the extension is just flat a bad idea based on the success of a good idea and what better way to ruin both then throwing money at a low density, sketchy concept that doesnt intersect anything useful. Who is going to use it? Not plaza patrons. UM CK will take uber to CBD amenities before the painful ~20-stop + stoplights it will take. Now maybe midtown will take to either way but already served by busses. I just dont get it.

If you want to improve transit - start seriously looking into commuter rail. Bring in workers and commuters from peripheral towns and burbs. Adding lanes to hiways is so yesterday. KCMO needs commuter rail and guess what? you already have more rail that most every other city in the US.

Bring it on for comments...."just because you can, doesn't mean you should"

mykn
Western Auto Lofts
Western Auto Lofts
Posts: 519
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:33 pm

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by mykn » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:49 am

Jfc

User avatar
normalthings
Alameda Tower
Alameda Tower
Posts: 1162
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by normalthings » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:56 am

ToDactivist wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:31 am
Okay i've had it. the extension is just flat a bad idea based on the success of a good idea and what better way to ruin both then throwing money at a low density, sketchy concept that doesnt intersect anything useful. Who is going to use it? Not plaza patrons. UM CK will take uber to CBD amenities before the painful ~20-stop + stoplights it will take. Now maybe midtown will take to either way but already served by busses. I just dont get it.

If you want to improve transit - start seriously looking into commuter rail. Bring in workers and commuters from peripheral towns and burbs. Adding lanes to hiways is so yesterday. KCMO needs commuter rail and guess what? you already have more rail that most every other city in the US.

Bring it on for comments...."just because you can, doesn't mean you should"
Agreed. Sorta. Long distance curb running streetcar doesn’t sound attractive(slow, easy to disrupt,etc). The moment they dropped center running was the moment this stopped being about creating a real long term transit spine/solution. I know Dave was #teamcenterunning. IMHO: This expansion line really needed to be built as a dedicated lane - center running system. But at the same time, driving downtown can be faster than the streetcar, yet many people including myself take the train. I am sure the expansion will be ok. But not as great as it otherwise could be.

The Riverfront extension is generally a good idea except that there is such little density being proposed down there. They need to up the average building height to 8+ stories IMHO.

Commuter Rail actually makes a lot more sense than a KC Light Rail system. The problem is of course the “final mile” into downtown. Maybe the next KCRAG meetup could involve us building a train tunnel😂.

User avatar
WSPanic
Hotel President
Hotel President
Posts: 3417
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by WSPanic » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:03 am

Was this particular project ever supposed about providing a real long-term transit solution?

I was under the impression this was a development tool for the core of our city. Which seems to be working out pretty well.

earthling
Oak Tower
Oak Tower
Posts: 4643
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:27 pm

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by earthling » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:11 am

As a bus rider I can see where you are coming from, a free bus could be just as useful for those who are indifferent about bus vs streetcar. But don't think you can debate that fixed rail of any kind will ultimately spur significant development through midtown and attract new riders overall and reduce need for parking. It will certainly be used by tourists/hotel visitors between Plaza/Downtown. At some point maybe streetcar line could reduce stops with overlaying local bus service or vice versa - functioning more like commuter LRT.

While the river to UMKC will provide an important fixed spine, maybe this extension (and riverfront) should be it for the 'streetcar' format in KC. New bus trams that look/feel/operate like streetcar will likely take over sooner than later. Used in China but don't think it's hit the US yet.

Commuter rail is needed to the burbs but given KC has among highest freight rail traffic US, the rail companies apparently aren't playing nice with idea of passenger traffic, which if I recall requires rail crossing upgrades and more difficult traffic mgmt logistics.

User avatar
grovester
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 3768
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:30 pm
Location: KC Metro

Re: Phase 2 streetcar to UMKC

Post by grovester » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:16 am

There was nothing less dense that the crossroads pre-streetcar and it seems to be booming now. The extension has the advantage of lots of residential within walking distance.

Post Reply