OFFICIAL: Power & Light District

[DColeKC]

Lol what the heck? I thought we may have some real tenant news.

I didn’t want to bog down the stadium thread with my legal question or this in general. I think Matt Abbot is probably having his lawyers draw up some paperwork but after this beta test, I agree it wouldn’t be a good look for a bigger developer to have their lawyers send a warning. I love my freedom of speech but hate how some can say whatever they want about a company with no consequences. Feels like dangerous territory.

[KCPowercat]

Ya think? Jfc the optics of even asking this question are horrible.

Let's go back to filling empty retail spaces in this thread.

Interestingly I was dining at Bristol the other day and my credit card app popped up and asked if I wanted to use their special at rosa Mexicana close by. Obviously we don't have one of those anywhere close. Found that odd / interesting?

When are all those teased tenants coming?

[DColeKC]

Ya think? Jfc the optics of even asking this question are horrible.

Let's go back to filling empty retail spaces in this thread.

Interestingly I was dining at Bristol the other day and my credit card app popped up and asked if I wanted to use their special at rosa Mexicana close by. Obviously we don't have one of those anywhere close. Found that odd / interesting?

When are all those teased tenants coming?

How are the optics of me as a private person on a forum asking this question horrible? I don't work for any developer, I'd hope all of us would take issue when someone is making verifiably false statements in the media in an attempt to bolster their position and tarnish the reputation of others.

I don't think I'll comment on timelines. Too many variables.

[FangKC]

DCole, in this case, you are mistaking defamation for criticism.

She used the words "in my opinion." People can hold beliefs without proof and speak them. Otherwise, preaching most religions wouldn't be protected speech.

But in this case, she also alludes to the City having to make bond payments to cover P&L's shortfalls, which provides her some basis for HER opinion. In that case, she isn't lying about facts because it's true about the bonds. Prosecutors accuse companies of fraud and put them on trial. They might lose if the jury finds against them. This doesn't mean they have defamed a company. They thought they had enough evidence to bring a case albeit circumstantial.

There is also the cloak of political speech here. Cordish stands to benefit from taxpayers funding a new stadium at their doorstep. Some taxpayers may criticize P&L's failure to fully fund bond payments and use that in the political context of the stadium and Cordish working with the Royals. In essence, she is leading a campaign against the project and using examples of a party with interest as an example. Because Cordish benefits from public subsidies using taxes residents pay, they have placed themselves in a public arena for any criticism. When Cordish got involved with the Royals in the placement of the stadium, they opened themselves up for this type of criticism.

The other issue here would be proving that she had malice against Cordish and she sought to damage their reputation. She is involving them in a political context, not a personal vendetta. It would be hard to prove malice in this situation.

[DColeKC]

DCole, in this case, you are mistaking defamation for criticism.

She used the words "in my opinion." People can hold beliefs without proof and speak them. Otherwise, preaching most religions wouldn't be protected speech.

But in this case, she also alludes to the City having to make bond payments to cover P&L's shortfalls, which provides her some basis for HER opinion. In that case, she isn't lying about facts because it's true about the bonds. Prosecutors accuse companies of fraud and put them on trial. They might lose if the jury finds against them. This doesn't mean they have defamed a company. They thought they had enough evidence to bring a case albeit circumstantial.

There is also the cloak of political speech here. Cordish stands to benefit from taxpayers funding a new stadium at their doorstep. Some taxpayers may criticize P&L's failure to fully fund bond payments and use that in the political context of the stadium and Cordish working with the Royals. In essence, she is leading a campaign against the project and using examples of a party with interest as an example. Because Cordish benefits from public subsidies using taxes residents pay, they have placed themselves in a public arena for any criticism. When Cordish got involved with the Royals in the placement of the stadium, they opened themselves up for this type of criticism.

The other issue here would be proving that she had malice against Cordish and she sought to damage their reputation. She is involving them in a political context, not a personal vendetta. It would be hard to prove malice in this situation.

Thank you. I appreciate the articulate response. I was only bringing this up for my own education, I wasn't suggesting Cordish should do anything about it. They're much more patient and smarter than me on this stuff. They deal with similar criticisms all over the country, this one just felt different as she was suggesting they have committed fraud. I don't think the federal government would have given them three federal loans for apartment buildings if they thought there was anything sketching going on.

[FangKC]

The fact any party received a federal loan doesn't mean anything regarding practices. The federal government has given loans to parties and later learned they committed fraud, and prosecuted them.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/leader-2 ... d-15-years

Before it went bankrupt, Enron received about $3.7 billion in financing through federal government agencies.

https://www.cato.org/blog/enron-dependent-government

Ken Lay was the CEO of Enron back in 1986. Over the years, as chairman of Enron, he built a team of highly aggressive business and financial executives who were willing to skirt financial reporting requirements by developing off-balance sheet entities to hide Enron’s massive debt load from investors and regulators.
...
After being indicted by a grand jury on 11 counts of securities fraud, wire fraud, and making false and misleading statements, Lay was eventually convicted of six counts of conspiracy and fraud. In a separate bench trial, he was convicted of an additional four counts of fraud and making false statements.
...

https://www.investopedia.com/enron-executives-6831970

[KCPowercat]

I wasn't suggesting Cordish should do anything about it.

I mean you did say you were going to screenshot it and send it to their lawyers?

I don't think the federal government would have given them three federal loans for apartment buildings if they thought there was anything sketching going on.

Have you ever dealt with the government? Giving contracts doesn't mean anything about anybody's innocence or guilt. Again as mentioned earlier people are voting for president (no matter your party) people who lie to the publci, yet we're holding the owner of bars to a higher standard? come on.

[DColeKC]

I wasn't suggesting Cordish should do anything about it.

I mean you did say you were going to screenshot it and send it to their lawyers?

I don't think the federal government would have given them three federal loans for apartment buildings if they thought there was anything sketching going on.

Have you ever dealt with the government? Giving contracts doesn't mean anything about anybody's innocence or guilt. Again as mentioned earlier people are voting for president (no matter your party) people who lie to the publci, yet we're holding the owner of bars to a higher standard? come on.

"I'm considering screenshooting and sending to my contacts at Cordish". That's exactly what I said. I even mentioned I have no idea if they would even care or not. I think if her simply adding, "in my opinion" covers her ass, surely me saying, "I have no idea if they would even care of not" means something too.

I know enough about HUD loans to know they do some legitimate checking into those they're giving money too. Enron was working extremely hard to hide their fraud. She's suggesting that Cordish (who didn't even hire the firm to put together the projections) committed fraud by falsifying their revenue projections. I would think this would be insanely easy to prove. The claim further perpetuates the idea that P&L was a bad investment. She also mentions lawsuits and encourages people to "do some digging". These are clearly in an attempt to make P&L out to be a bad investment for the city and a place to avoid, unless you like, "lining the pockets of billionaires". There's no doubt her false narrative can and will hurt P&L but as mentioned, very hard to prove and not worth it.

She's not just the owner of a bar. She's the most vocal member of the opposition group fighting the stadium site. She stopped simply being a "bar owner" when she started accusing the Royals of violating basic worker rights. Matt Abbott of predatory leasing practices. Cordish of committing fraud and John Sherman of a mix bagged of nefarious actions. So save me the "come on", she's just a bar owner bullshit.

I came here looking for education from people I figured knew more about this than I did. I got what I wanted and I thank those who actually took their time to opine respectfully and knowledgeably.

[KCPowercat]

Anyways, lot of empty retail in P&L, let's hope this spring or this news of a baseball stadium finally fills up some spaces and reduces the general fund burden.

She's silly for blaming Cordish though to be clear. When this deal went down KCMO's own finance people were saying this deal wouldn't cover the debt and we were all (most all) good with it.

[Chris Stritzel]

I know that construction on the expanded Rally House is chugging along. Last time I walked by, they were cutting holes into the wall at the current Rally House to connect to the expanded area. Hopefully that expansion doesn’t make it feel so crammed and cluttered like it currently does.

Also, being the absolute stupid person I am, I only learned recently that County Road Ice House is just Joe’s BBQ with a different name. I honestly thought it was its own thing and served catered Joe’s BBQ from the location at 47th and Mission. Never been there before either, so maybe I should try it. Either way, I feel embarrassed about not knowing that.

[KCPowercat]

Also, being the absolute stupid person I am, I only learned recently that County Road Ice House is just Joe’s BBQ with a different name. I honestly thought it was its own thing and served catered Joe’s BBQ from the location at 47th and Mission. Never been there before either, so maybe I should try it. Either way, I feel embarrassed about not knowing that.

Yeah it's my preferred Joes mostly because of location but also because it's a full service place with a bar. Always quick and good. Not my favorite BBQ but downtown wise use it frequently.

[DColeKC]

Anyways, lot of empty retail in P&L, let's hope this spring or this news of a baseball stadium finally fills up some spaces and reduces the general fund burden.

She's silly for blaming Cordish though to be clear. When this deal went down KCMO's own finance people were saying this deal wouldn't cover the debt and we were all (most all) good with it.

A lot of empty retail across the country. How many times has the Plaza been bought and sold or in bankruptcy?

The rise of E-Commerce almost perfectly coincided with the time frame P&L opened up. The "amazon effect" came on strong later. Let's just skip past the recession that took place right as P&L came online.

It has been a struggle to say the least, thankfully the developer has been able to shift focuses and remain profitable while continuing to build out the master development plan.

Btw, say this online in response to someone claiming PNL is all trash national chain restaurants. At a glance, it looks accurate. Pretty cool that it's majority locally owned and operated businesses.

Locally owned businesses:
B&B Theatres
Blade and Timber
Blue Sushi (regional, Omaha)
BRGR
Bristol
County Road Ice House
Johnies Jazz Bar
Johnnys Tavern
Protein House
Sinkers
810 Chop House (regional, Des Moines)
Hooley House
Modern Market Eatery
HomeGrown
Posh
Polished
Visit KC
Bare Medspa

National Brands:
Chipotle
Guys Dive
Yard House

[Cratedigger]

National Brands:
Chipotle
Guys Dive
Yard House

Bank of America
Insomnia Cookies

[KCPowercat]

National Brands:
Chipotle
Guys Dive
Yard House

Bank of America
Insomnia Cookies

Chase, PowerLife Yoga i think is national

Could add Rally House to the local list

[rxlexi]

Also, being the absolute stupid person I am, I only learned recently that County Road Ice House is just Joe’s BBQ with a different name. I honestly thought it was its own thing and served catered Joe’s BBQ from the location at 47th and Mission. Never been there before either, so maybe I should try it. Either way, I feel embarrassed about not knowing that.

Yeah it's my preferred Joes mostly because of location but also because it's a full service place with a bar. Always quick and good. Not my favorite BBQ but downtown wise use it frequently.

Agreed re: County Road, usually busy but not packed, quick and consistent and full bar to your point. Still think not leveraging the Joe's KC brand makes no sense, I know of almost no one that is aware or considers County Road to be "Joe's KC downtown location", which is unfortunate.

[wahoowa]

the naming decision at ice house has always been a little weird. it made more sense when they first opened as they had many more non bbq options (multiple taco offerings using smoked meats, mexican adjacent sides, etc). the pitch when they opened was more "joe's plus" than "joe's downtown". but they took basically all those menu items away during covid. the naming discrepancy between this and joe's makes even less sense on the consumer side now.

[DColeKC]

the naming decision at ice house has always been a little weird. it made more sense when they first opened as they had many more non bbq options (multiple taco offerings using smoked meats, mexican adjacent sides, etc). the pitch when they opened was more "joe's plus" than "joe's downtown". but they took basically all those menu items away during covid. the naming discrepancy between this and joe's makes even less sense on the consumer side now.

From what I was told, the owner of Joe's was nervous that the quality wouldn't be the same since it was his first partnership. Also, they don't have the outdoor smoker they use at other locations and that made him nervous as well. I could be messing that up, I know nothing about how to smoke and cook BBQ.

These are the reasons they didn't lean more into the Joes name but I think they've proven those concerns aren't valid. They should change some branding to make sure people know it's Joes and can't miss it.

The food is so fast there.

[KCPowercat]

I haven't noticed the quality falling off at all but honestly I don't remember the last time I went to a "real" Joes. Personally it's far from my favorite BBQ but it's consistent and close.

[Highlander]

the naming decision at ice house has always been a little weird. it made more sense when they first opened as they had many more non bbq options (multiple taco offerings using smoked meats, mexican adjacent sides, etc). the pitch when they opened was more "joe's plus" than "joe's downtown". but they took basically all those menu items away during covid. the naming discrepancy between this and joe's makes even less sense on the consumer side now.

I thought it was named Ice House because it was suppose to emulate a Texas BBQ which often have the beers iced in a container and you pick them up on the way to order (as many Texas BBQ don't have wait staff, it's order at the window). I seem to remember they also ran into issues with the County Line aspect because of the chain with that name and changed it from County Line Ice House to County Road Ice House. They didn't stick very closely with the Texas concept as it's not order at the counter and they serve a wide variety of food including french fries which are rarely available at Texas BBQ joints.

I went there a couple of times after they just opened and had issues with service but the food was good. The last couple of times I've tried to go there, early in the week, it's been closed but according to their website, they are back to being open for lunch again 7 days a week.

[beautyfromashes]

IN MY OPINION: I think Cordish is starting to realize that local businesses are the ticket for P&L. They seem to have maintained the longest, except for a few exceptions ie. Chefburger (great concept that did extremely well at the beginning but go wrapped up in a wave of craziness) and Kill Devil Club (terrible location). Cordish should take the long play with places like the Bristol instead of chasing the bigger chains that need more return. Fill all the locations and then slowly increase rent due to scarcity. They seem to be on the right path now. Wish they would have listened to people on this board earlier.