KCRag Forum

I wish we could have more serious museums that aren’t just run by Some Guy, and are hanging on by a thread. An official Kansas City Air and Space Museum seems like a natural. Get the Smithsonian involved

missingkc wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 10:45 am Not an excuse for the treatment described here.

Not a legally allowable excuse either. This shouldn't even be in the court system. The museum is clearly in the right. Signature doesn't even own the hanger. The city does.

1822 Main in the Crossroads and 14th Wyandotte in P&L both triggered the FAA Approvals Process. 14th Wyandotte is SHORTER then its adjacent neighor. Pushes me further to thinking Wheeler needs to close if the FAA doesn't make changes soon.

langosta wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 2:16 am 1822 Main in the Crossroads and 14th Wyandotte in P&L both triggered the FAA Approvals Process. 14th Wyandotte is SHORTER then its adjacent neighor. Pushes me further to thinking Wheeler needs to close if the FAA doesn't make changes soon.

Asked this question in another thread, but it probably makes more sense here anyway

Has the FAA Approvals Process meaningfully changed recently? Or do we just hear about it more because there are more proposals downtown?

Additionally, is it publicly known where the Charles B. Wheeler Downtown Airport (MKC) height zoning restrictions apply or what those restrictions are explicitly?

Cratedigger wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 7:27 am

langosta wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 2:16 am 1822 Main in the Crossroads and 14th Wyandotte in P&L both triggered the FAA Approvals Process. 14th Wyandotte is SHORTER then its adjacent neighor. Pushes me further to thinking Wheeler needs to close if the FAA doesn't make changes soon.

Asked this question in another thread, but it probably makes more sense here anyway

Has the FAA Approvals Process meaningfully changed recently? Or do we just hear about it more because there are more proposals downtown?

Additionally, is it publicly known where the Charles B. Wheeler Downtown Airport (MKC) height zoning restrictions apply or what those restrictions are explicitly?

There are maps of the navigable airspace online. I think we have a lot more new construction now that most building one could renovate have been renovated.

langosta wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 2:16 am 1822 Main in the Crossroads and 14th Wyandotte in P&L both triggered the FAA Approvals Process. 14th Wyandotte is SHORTER then its adjacent neighor. Pushes me further to thinking Wheeler needs to close if the FAA doesn't make changes soon.

That little fucking airport isn’t worth clogging up every bit of tower development we do downtown. Sorry.

I understand the frustration with review processes and stuff, but I don’t really see a good future with the downtown airport closed. What would the land be used for? Would it need remediation? Would industry use it, like Fairfax? Would it be turned into a park? How do we maintain that much park?

I can just very clearly see a scenario where downtown infamously sits directly across from an abandoned airport for several decades just because we got a little annoyed with the FAA that one time

TheLastGentleman wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 9:05 am I understand the frustration with review processes and stuff, but I don’t really see a good future with the downtown airport closed. What would the land be used for? Would it need remediation? Would industry use it, like Fairfax? Would it be turned into a park? How do we maintain that much park?

I can just very clearly see a scenario where downtown infamously sits directly across from an abandoned airport for several decades just because we got a little annoyed with the FAA that one time

Arrowhead 2.0

TheUrbanRoo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 8:53 am

langosta wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 2:16 am 1822 Main in the Crossroads and 14th Wyandotte in P&L both triggered the FAA Approvals Process. 14th Wyandotte is SHORTER then its adjacent neighor. Pushes me further to thinking Wheeler needs to close if the FAA doesn't make changes soon.

That little fucking airport isn’t worth clogging up every bit of tower development we do downtown. Sorry.

That little airport generates a significant amount of economic impact for the region. From the early 2010s so I'd be curious where this number is now 10 years later. Very likely over $100 million a year at this point

https://www.modot.org/sites/default/fil ... impact.pdf

Cratedigger wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:14 am

TheUrbanRoo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 8:53 am

langosta wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 2:16 am 1822 Main in the Crossroads and 14th Wyandotte in P&L both triggered the FAA Approvals Process. 14th Wyandotte is SHORTER then its adjacent neighor. Pushes me further to thinking Wheeler needs to close if the FAA doesn't make changes soon.

That little fucking airport isn’t worth clogging up every bit of tower development we do downtown. Sorry.

That little airport generates a significant amount of economic impact for the region. From the early 2010s so I'd be curious where this number is now 10 years later. Very likely over $100 million a year at this point

https://www.modot.org/sites/default/fil ... impact.pdf

Yeah, was waiting for someone to say that. Move it somewhere else, use MCI, I don’t care. It’s not worth destroying all this development over an air strip that can go basically anywhere more conveniently.

I’m not in favor is closing the downtown airport. The FAA needs to sit down with the city to discuss the height situations downtown. Work towards establishing pre-approved zones that take existing buildings and elevation changes into context. Condense some flight paths. Be smart about it.

There’s no need to close the downtown airport if it brings in revenue AND there’s a path to getting developments approved downtown. People can be upset at the FAA all they want, and call for the downtown airport to close, but it’s a ludicrous idea.

Chris Stritzel wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 11:00 am I’m not in favor is closing the downtown airport. The FAA needs to sit down with the city to discuss the height situations downtown. Work towards establishing pre-approved zones that take existing buildings and elevation changes into context. Condense some flight paths. Be smart about it.

There’s no need to close the downtown airport if it brings in revenue AND there’s a path to getting developments approved downtown. People can be upset at the FAA all they want, and call for the downtown airport to close, but it’s a ludicrous idea.

Agreed. There has to be a solution here. I think Platt's office mentioned in a recent article that they received further guidance from the FAA on what is acceptable and what is not.

How are other cities such as St Petersburg, Florida, Cleveland
or St. Paul handling this issue? Or is MKC different for some reason

Not to mention this airport does handle a significant amount of traffic (third busiest in the State if I’m not mistaken) and I don’t think many are gauging the possible unintended consequences of funneling more private and industrial traffic to either MCI or JCI. The access to downtown for private traffic as well can not be overstated. In attracting significant Corporate presence to downtown, having close in access for executives is hard to gauge the true value of.

Edited out link -kcpowercat

On a more visceral level, I also think having an airport across from downtown is just inherently interesting. Throwing a feature like that in the trash is just scrubbing a little bit more uniqueness from the city.

Cratedigger wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 11:20 am

Chris Stritzel wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 11:00 am I’m not in favor is closing the downtown airport. The FAA needs to sit down with the city to discuss the height situations downtown. Work towards establishing pre-approved zones that take existing buildings and elevation changes into context. Condense some flight paths. Be smart about it.

There’s no need to close the downtown airport if it brings in revenue AND there’s a path to getting developments approved downtown. People can be upset at the FAA all they want, and call for the downtown airport to close, but it’s a ludicrous idea.

Agreed. There has to be a solution here. I think Platt's office mentioned in a recent article that they received further guidance from the FAA on what is acceptable and what is not.

How are other cities such as St Petersburg, Florida, Cleveland
or St. Paul handling this issue? Or is MKC different for some reason

I think Platt and everyone would take a solution in a heartbeat. The problem is the FAA seems to not give a shit.

TheUrbanRoo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:24 pm I think Platt and everyone would take a solution in a heartbeat. The problem is the FAA seems to not give a shit.

Probably not a great idea to start a war with an agency of the federal government, but what power plays does the city have over FAA interests or workers? “Road or water mane construction” in front of their downtown building or “pulling their parking garage access” to city owned spaces or “air conditioning maintenance” at the downtown airport air traffic control?

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 4:35 pm

TheUrbanRoo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:24 pm I think Platt and everyone would take a solution in a heartbeat. The problem is the FAA seems to not give a shit.

Probably not a great idea to start a war with an agency of the federal government, but what power plays does the city have over FAA interests or workers? “Road or water mane construction” in front of their downtown building or “pulling their parking garage access” to city owned spaces or “air conditioning maintenance” at the downtown airport air traffic control?

Schedule more parades, events, and street festivals in Ilus Davis Park, which may affect access and parking for a short period AND activate greenspace downtown

TheUrbanRoo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:24 pm

Cratedigger wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 11:20 am

Chris Stritzel wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 11:00 am I’m not in favor is closing the downtown airport. The FAA needs to sit down with the city to discuss the height situations downtown. Work towards establishing pre-approved zones that take existing buildings and elevation changes into context. Condense some flight paths. Be smart about it.

There’s no need to close the downtown airport if it brings in revenue AND there’s a path to getting developments approved downtown. People can be upset at the FAA all they want, and call for the downtown airport to close, but it’s a ludicrous idea.

Agreed. There has to be a solution here. I think Platt's office mentioned in a recent article that they received further guidance from the FAA on what is acceptable and what is not.

How are other cities such as St Petersburg, Florida, Cleveland
or St. Paul handling this issue? Or is MKC different for some reason

I think Platt and everyone would take a solution in a heartbeat. The problem is the FAA seems to not give a shit.

Platt and City proposed a reasonable solution: break MKC's surrounds into zones with reasonable allowable max heights before one off applications are needed. The City is doing its part to seek a win-win solution.

Definitely need to sit down with the FAA to come up with a solutions. It 2023 and the world of aviation and avionics have improved dramatically since when most of these rules/guidelines were put in place. Even if they were refreshed in the 1990's or Early 2000's the technology has grown and with it more safety in navigation. There is common sense on building heights in direct flight plans and a solution should be in place for development within those direct flight paths where most of your air traffic is routed. Point being there has to be a common ground that the FAA and the city come to terms on. The FAA does not want to waste resources approving things they don't need to, and the city & developers don't want to lose time and money to things that are no more than bureaucratic red tape that slows down an eventual yes.