Long-term prognosis of Power and Light District

[aknowledgeableperson]

  by contrast, what we would call suburbs today have only existed for maybe 50 years. 

Suburbs have been around longer than that.  Once mass transit (trolleys, etc in the 1880's) came along areas outside the central part of the city became livable in that one can go to bed some distance from where one works.  Yes, those initial areas might have been in the city but those initial areas would be on the fringe of the city and now would be considered part of the urban life (locally midtown, Brookside, etc.)  

[chrizow]

Suburbs have been around longer than that.  Once mass transit (trolleys, etc in the 1880's) came along areas outside the central part of the city became livable in that one can go to bed some distance from where one works.  Yes, those initial areas might have been in the city but those initial areas would be on the fringe of the city and now would be considered part of the urban life (locally midtown, Brookside, etc.)  

i'm aware of that. that's why i said "what we would call suburbs today" - i.e. auto-centric, highway-driven suburbs.  i live at 45th and Troost/Gillham, and it was probably "the suburbs" in 1909 when my house was built.  now it is part of the urban fabric.  i am part of a form of urban living that has existed in the US for at least 175 years.  more dense, pedestrian-focused urban living was the norm before that (and still is outside the US and in a few US cities), and that has been the norm for what, 700 years?  modern suburbs are the fad.

[KCPowercat]

chriz....you sidestepped his entire point. (which I was also trying to make)

[chrizow]

my mind is open enough to accept the existence of the P+L district.  that doesn't mean i cannot vocalize my criticisms of it.  i do the same with other things i don't like too.

[mean]

I don't like people who don't like things. They're always like, "I don't like that stuff cause it isn't cool," and then I'm like, "Oh yeah, well maybe you're not cool to that thing you don't think is cool!" And then they're like, "I wouldn't want to be cool to something that uncool anyway," and then I'm like, "You're only saying that because you're jealous of the things you don't think is cool," and then they're like, "No way dude," and I'm like, "Yeah way, dude, you just criticize everything because you're a stuck up snob," and they're like, "So what?"

[KCPowercat]

that wasn't the point.  A set of people here have decided that p&l attendees are the 'lowest common denominator', '20's dunk frat guys', etc....that's not the case....p&l draws a diverse group of people.  Everybody here gets pissed when their urban hood is classified as trashy, ghetto, whatever by the burbs but then some turn right around and apply that same (il)logic to customers od the p&l.  Why?

fine you don't like how the city financed it, how its designed...fair....but laying judgment on all who enter the place?  Are you kidding?


full disclosure...I like the p&l...I am not in my 20s, I was not in a frat, I do not wear Ed Hardy gear.

[chrizow]

A set of people here have decided that p&l attendees are the 'lowest common denominator', '20's dunk frat guys', etc....that's not the case....p&l draws a diverse group of people.  Everybody here gets pissed when their urban hood is classified as trashy, ghetto, whatever by the burbs but then some turn right around and apply that same (il)logic to customers od the p&l.  Why?

because.

[mean]

Double standards are the new Prada.

[KCPowercat]

good enough for me...

[aknowledgeableperson]

  modern suburbs are the fad.

Your so-called modern suburbs are just an extension of those "old suburbs" like the one you live in now.  And given the number of jobs and overall economic investment these modern suburbs will have a long shelf life.

Yes, in 50 years both the cities and the suburbs might look far different than today but given progress and change that can happen between now and then instead of talking about the decay of the suburbs one might be talking about the good old days of urban living back at the turn of the 21st century.  

[KC-wildcat]

because.

Right on.  And so goes the debate.  No answers or justifications for unfounded opinions.  That's cool.  Not entirely unexpected. 

"there isn't a chance in hell that i could ever appreciate the KC Live block."  - Chriz

Nice work.   

[chrizow]

really though, i dont think i would call the patrons of the KC Live! area very diverse at all.  while the "ed hardy/skank" comments may not really capture the crowd there on a friday night, it's pretty clearly a "college" type of place (or people who want to relive those days).  i really do not think that paying cover charges to stand around with a red dixie cup of bud light is aimed at a "diverse" audience.  

i do realize that the greater P+L appeals to a broader demographic, when you factor in the sprint center, midland, AMC, restaurants, etc.  but TK is right that the nightlife mall really seems to be the central part of it and the "brand" of the P+L, and it is basically one big college party that attracts such "diverse" groups as:

* current frat guys/sorority girls (20%)
* former frat guys/sorority girls (20%)
* people who did not go to college, but would have probably been in a frat/sorority (20%)
* weirdly "Jersey"-esque gelled up duders and their female counterparts. (20%)
* a small % of people who do not fit in these categories, but could justifiably be called "normal folks." (20%)
* people like me who stand back, mouth agape, at the entire scene (20%)

[im2kull]

I agree with you Chriz...

The only Demographic I see at the P&L district on a regular basis is the one dumb enough to pay 10 different, redicoulous (Nearly $10 at most places), cover charges in ONE night!

[chrizow]

i also dispute KCP's idea that the P+L is "just another option" for city/metro residents.  if the P+L just popped up out of nowhere, i would agree with that.  but it's not "just another option" at all - it's an $800M, city-financed entertainment district managed by an out of town, billion-dollar corporation - AND we're basically betting the farm (downtown) on it.  i would certainly expect such a place to receive a heightened degree of scrutiny. 

and when you add in stuff like the dress code controversy, the KCMO//TIF/political aspect of it all, the ethics/politics in general of handing over downtown city blocks to a corporation, etc., it casts the frat-party atmosphere in a rather troubling light for me.

[im2kull]

i also dispute KCP's idea that the P+L is "just another option" for city/metro residents.  if the P+L just popped up out of nowhere, i would agree with that.  but it's not "just another option" at all - it's an $800M, city-financed entertainment district managed by an out of town, billion-dollar corporation - AND we're basically betting the farm (downtown) on it.  i would certainly expect such a place to receive a heightened degree of scrutiny. 

and when you add in stuff like the dress code controversy, the KCMO//TIF/political aspect of it all, the ethics/politics in general of handing over downtown city blocks to a corporation, etc., it casts the frat-party atmosphere in a rather troubling light for me.

The important thing to remember is, that if we're having this argument on here...over the frat-party atmosphere of P&L, then how do you think people outside of this forum view the P&L District?


You can't honestly think that the majority of people in suburbs think of the P&L district as more than a bunch of overpriced bars and a kiddie hangout...so what's that mean for the long term?  That's the real question...

Do we really want a westport-like image for P&L...in the long term?

[KCPowercat]

chriz...your 120% breakdown seems to pretty much reflect america

there should be no question why this and everything in this city faces such an uphill climb.  SO much judgment laid on one 'group' by another 'group'.

its a new option that some people enjoy....having to classify those who do enjoy it into some sort of silo is idiotic in my mind....I thought we were attempting to move past this?

[chrizow]

chriz...your 120% breakdown seems to pretty much reflect america

ha, not really, but i did mean to put 10% on the last two.  MATH IS HARD

there should be no question why this and everything in this city faces such an uphill climb.   SO much judgment laid on one 'group' by another 'group'.

its a new option that some people enjoy....having to classify those who do enjoy it into some sort of silo is idiotic in my mind....I thought we were attempting to move past this?

as mentioned above, the P+L is not "just another option."  it's a hugely complicated social, political and financial endeavor.  basically "let's bet the farm on an out of town corporation creating a new downtown to replace the one we pissed away - and the way to do that is with a nightlife mall and surrounding attractions aimed at bringing suburban tourists, the ones who turned their back on the city to begin with, to venture back into the city periodically to get hammered and maybe see a movie."  also, it cost nigh on a billion fucking dollars.  behind the snarky comments about "d-bags" there is a real issue here.

[KCPowercat]

...and as others have pointed out a hundred times, we thought you were informed enough to know that p&l is not all downtown is.....efforts are all over downtown.

fine you don't like how it cordish was brought in...make sure to trash it to everybody you can find to help ensure it fails...that will surely help out kcmo.

[chrizow]

make sure to trash it to everybody you can find to help ensure it fails...that will surely help out kcmo.

in a venn diagram comparing "people who might like the P+L District" and "people who value chrizow's opinion," the circles would not overlap whatsoever.  

if anything, the fact i hate it would probably cause some people to instinctively like it.

[shinatoo]

If the condo market in DT had continued to grow at the rate it was two years ago, caring about what the suburbanites think about PnL would have been a mute point. But now we have another five years of depending on outlanders for the viability of the district. Once the condo market builds back up PnL will be fine to target itself toward the DINK and singles market.

Overall a good investment for KC. We lost the Law building but we saved the Professional Building, Empire Theater, Midland, Hotel President and probably the Power and Light building. Gained the mojo to start the Eastside redevelopment and put the Greater DT area (mainly the crossroads) on more solid footing. Plus we got the Sprint Center and the Kauffamn PAC. Do you think 75% of the above would still be even a consideration in the next ten years if we didn't have the P and L? I don't.

Other than Robert Shiller and his ilk, who saw this kind of downturn coming?

The question now is not how do we get more storefronts to open but how do we keep the ones that are alive until we see a recovery?