Bannister Mall/Cerner

Jackson/Cass Suburbs, including South KC
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Highlander
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Re: Bannister Mall/Three Trails Development

Post by Highlander »

aknowledgeableperson wrote:
I don't understand the reasoning here
Easy. Cerner can do what they want to do in the space they need and at a cost that is within its means.
This project is hardly a Cerner only initiative. The site has received large incentives for redevelopment to the redevelopment company long before Cerner arrived on the scene and will receive even more public money now. I am disappointed that the mayor's office did not come up with something like "hey, it's great you are interested in KCMO but our assets are already a bit too dispersed as it is, would you consider equal or better incentives to do this downtown? We are trying to create something special there and you could be part of it.".

KC tends to get bad ideas in it's collective political head and tends to pursue them without thinking anything through. In terms of location, the site is a total waste of one of KC's larger and more viable corporate entities.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Three Trails Development

Post by moderne »

With three campuses at least 20 miles apart from one another I hope they have a helicopter to move the brass around when needed. Being an international concern, it would be nice if Cerner would like a high profile international headquarters tower on the 2 blocks at 12th and Grand. At least the administrative people would be closer to all the campuses.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Three Trails Development

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the mayor's office did not come up with something like "hey, it's great you are interested in KCMO but our assets are already a bit too dispersed as it is, would you consider equal or better incentives to do this downtown? We are trying to create something special there and you could be part of it.".
"No thank you. We already have a large facility near Three Trails that we want to associate with. No incentives for us at Three Trails, that's OK. We will just take these 15,000 jobs to the Village West area. We will go to a place were they want us."

In terms of location, the site is a total waste of one of KC's larger and more viable corporate entities.
Difference of opinion. A great location. Great highway access. Great visibility. Great boost for the area.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Three Trails Development

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aknowledgeableperson wrote:Difference of opinion. A great location. Great highway access. Great visibility. Great boost for the area.
What's the boost for the area? These people will simply pack a lunch before going to any local restaurants or shops in a suspect neighborhood (that do not even presently exist). The only advantage I can see for KCMO is the 1% earnings tax. In terms of area development, it's just good money after bad. Exxon here in Houston advises its well paid and several thousand Greenspoint employees not even to visit the local Greenspoint Mall over the lunch area out of concern for their safety (and now Exxon is finally abandoning the location after many years). I doubt if Cerner will go that far but you can see that one influx of worker isn't going to make a difference - it takes critical mass and this site will never achieve that.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Three Trails Development

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

you can see that one influx of worker isn't going to make a difference - it takes critical mass and this site will never achieve that.
Much like anything else it will take time but the seeds have been planted. 87th St has been redone. There is a proposed Stowers Bioscience Project along this road. This project. Incentives already in place for development south of Bannister. There is so much that can be done in this area.

Main thing. This is part of KCMO and it should not be neglected with regards to development by the city. The potential is there.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Three Trails Development

Post by earthling »

Like most large IT companies in other cities (>5K employees), Cerner has never shown interest in downtown, it is what it is. Wouldn't be surprising that if they were offered more incentives downtown than other location they'd still go for other location. A chunk of River Market and Union Hill area already have many Cerner employees, just seems natural to have at least something downtown. I'd prefer at least a portion of jobs downtown too but it comes across as whining when a company doesn't choose downtown even if it doesn't make sense to us.

This is huge for the metro overall as they could easily have put these jobs in other US/global locations. The rate of growth they are talking about (biz growth and head count) is essentially like KC getting another HQ or two - 12K-15K above avg paying jobs is a notable boost for the metro wherever the jobs are located. S KC badly needs a boost and this is literally the scale of economic activity needed to pull it off. Downtown to Plaza is doing OK, yeah would be nice to get these jobs but it's not happening with Cerner. Downtown might be able draw other companies that support all Cerner sites and don't need large floor plates and thousands of parking spots.

I see Cerner as a metro employer, and is a nice bonus for KCMO to get the largest site instead of spreading across cities outside KC metro. That site doesn't encourage more sprawl and wakes up a dead part of the city, how can that not be desirable.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Three Trails Development

Post by pash »

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Re: Bannister Mall/Three Trails Development

Post by earthling »

pash wrote: In other words, is there really any eco-dev benefit at all from this sort of thing?
Does adding 12K-15K above avg income jobs to any city have eco-dev benefit? Pretty much always

Does adding 12K-15K above avg income jobs to any neighborhood have eco-dev benefit? Even higher chance than pretty much always

When starting with retail in a desolate area, they build it and hope others come. When starting with a large scale office park with 12-15K above avg income employees actually there (+2800 existing), there is critical mass for retail/restaurants to follow, especially at an intersection of several freeways. With enough momentum, more employment follows, more residential follows, more everything follows.

The scale of this project is large enough (if followed through as described) to kickstart such a snowball effect. There aren't many new urbanism projects that have turned out as good as on paper but I hope they take that approach rather than a plain jane suburban office park or Sprint like prison camp.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Three Trails Development

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Re: Bannister Mall/Three Trails Development

Post by earthling »

Would be interested to hear of examples of office parks with 15K above avg income and nothing else ever developed around it.

Some that have spurred other development even w/out 15K... Corporate Woods, Southcreek, Lenexa Business Park, Executive Hills, pretty much any office park in KC along a freeway.

Edit to your edit: I was just answering your question if this expects to spur some form of eco-dev. The obvious answer is, yes, it likely would. I don't really understand the question though. How is adding up to 15K above avg income jobs to any area questionable? What it gives S KC is opportunity that didn't seem it would ever get again. It's exciting for S KC.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Three Trails Development

Post by pash »

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Re: Bannister Mall/Three Trails Development

Post by earthling »

Still not following you downplaying it. The number one economic impact to a city and neighborhood is jobs, especially good paying jobs and 15K is eyebrow raising for that area. Am happy for S KC to get this.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Three Trails Development

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

I'm just trying to figure out what one really expects from a project like this, if it's not just sales taxes on the Sysco products sold in the campus cafeteria
One item could be to stop further decline in the area which decreases the tax base.

It could help rebuild the area. Some of those employees just may want to live nearby. True, some of the area is depressed but it isn't all "ghetto". There is some nice housing by Bannister and James A Reed, by Raytown Rd, and some expensive newer housing along Noland Rd and points further east. Also newer housing by Lakeside Hospital. All of this within the KCMO city limits. Even the depressed area has decent housing stock that a few would like to fix up, maybe not like Waldo, but definitely cheaper. There is also much vacant land in the area that is ripe for development, again adding to the tax base.

And, stated before, it could encourage more investment, or reinvestment, by others in the area.

Yes, those are three 'coulds' but that would apply to just about any development no matter where.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Three Trails Development

Post by FangKC »

With Cerner, one could only hope for a small presence downtown in the future (percentage of total jobs metro-wide). With 12,000-15,000 new jobs potentially, it would be hard to build enough space downtown with enough parking for those employees who don't have access to public transportation. It would require huge parking garages. Which in turn usually results in building demolition.

We don't presently have the mass transit infrastructure to deal with so many workers, to avoid building the needed parking spaces. We might someday if commuter rail happens, and the streetcar expands.

Perhaps we might see a day where Cerner might put 500-1000 administrative workers in a downtown headquarters.

I'm not saying you couldn't do it, but in would have to be adjacent to downtown, and not the loop. Cerner could build a large urban campus between downtown and Kansas City University of Medicine and Biosciences -- in the Paseo West district. A technology campus aligned with a university presence that could grow. There would be plenty of opportunities to build new offices and include garage parking along the edges of the neighborhood against the freeways, or underground. The neighborhood has good access to major highways, and would be along a possible streetcar route down Independence Avenue.

The neighborhood could be redeveloped to also include a lot of residential apartment buildings mixed in and around the campus.

http://forum.kcrag.com/viewtopic.php?p=505558#p505558

Aerial of the neighborhood.

https://maps.google.com/?ll=39.10299,-9 ... 8&t=h&z=15
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Re: Bannister Mall/Three Trails Development

Post by FangKC »

aknowledgeableperson wrote:
I'm just trying to figure out what one really expects from a project like this, if it's not just sales taxes on the Sysco products sold in the campus cafeteria
One item could be to stop further decline in the area which decreases the tax base.

It could help rebuild the area. Some of those employees just may want to live nearby. True, some of the area is depressed but it isn't all "ghetto". There is some nice housing by Bannister and James A Reed, by Raytown Rd, and some expensive newer housing along Noland Rd and points further east. Also newer housing by Lakeside Hospital. All of this within the KCMO city limits. Even the depressed area has decent housing stock that a few would like to fix up, maybe not like Waldo, but definitely cheaper. There is also much vacant land in the area that is ripe for development, again adding to the tax base.

And, stated before, it could encourage more investment, or reinvestment, by others in the area.

Yes, those are three 'coulds' but that would apply to just about any development no matter where.
I agree with AKP on this. That many highly-paid employees working at Three Trails will definitely have a huge impact on new housing development around the area in places that aren't developed yet. The biggest economic benefit is new housing and more residents in the area paying sales taxes, and the earnings tax. That assumes that many won't move to Lee's Summit or Blue Springs.

If I were the owners of Cerner, I would invest in a lot of residential housing around the campus. They could make a lot of money just on real estate development.

I would say this area will be ripe for development.

https://maps.google.com/?ll=38.94152,-9 ... 5&t=h&z=14
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Re: Bannister Mall/Three Trails Development

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dp
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Re: Bannister Mall/Three Trails Development

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pash wrote:In what sense do suburban office parks give a boost to the surrounding neighborhoods? I suppose things might seem less desolate—there will be more car traffic, etc. ...

But do people who work in these places even venture beyond the parking lots during the working day? Do they, say, get in their cars and drive to the nearest Chili's for lunch on a regular basis? I've never worked in a place like that, but I always imagined they have their own cafeterias, etc., since it would take so long to trek out to your car and drive a couple of miles just for lunch. (That's how it was when I worked in somewhat isolated urban offices in other cities—if there's nothing right down the street, everybody stays in the building.)

In other words, is there really any eco-dev benefit at all from this sort of thing? Or is the benefit to the city pretty much just what's left over from the property and earnings taxes after you net out the incentives it took to get them there in the first place?
I work in a suburban office area in Houston known as the Energy Corridor. Most of the larger companies do have their own cafeterias that are even quasi subsidized by the company (cost less for comparable food than a restaurant) but it is amazing to me how many people do get out and hit the local restaurants. The caveat is that there is some critical mass in that corridor with 3-4 major oil companies, a major hospital, and oil service companies and a lot of smaller companies. There are plenty of restaurants already in the area - good restaurants, not just a Jack in the Box or McDonalds. That's the difference between where I work or even College Blvd and the Bannister Mall area. There's nothing in the Bannister Mall area and I cannot see retail/restaurants moving in based on Cerner's projections. Maybe if there really were 15,000 employees there - but those projections are almost never realized.

As far as employees living nearby, I really doubt if that happens. This is KC. Driving from point A to point B is probably easier in KC than any comparable sized city in the country and certainly easier than here in Houston. Traffic nightmares in Houston, traffic peaks and lows dictate many people's schedules, make it worthwhile to live near the place of employment. The energy corridor, suburban as it is, has seen huge growth in high rise condos and apts recently driven by people sick of having a 10 mile journey take an hour during peak and near peak traffic times. Back to the Bannister Mall site, I can't see people who make a good wage wanting to live in an area that offers practically no amenities when it only takes them 20 minutes to get there from nearly any point in the metro at any time. Saving 10 minutes on a commute is not a compelling reason for most people to move. My view is that this development will be full of people who go there in the morning, rarely venture out of the office, and leave the area at night.

It would be great for KC to breathe some new life into these areas but I don't think KC metro's business capacity is such that the city can afford another "node" when the urban core itself sitting undeveloped, ungentrified, and still losing jobs and built environment (ie Hawthorne Building).
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Re: Bannister Mall/Three Trails Development

Post by earthling »

So other than downtown, where would be a better site? Airport, JoCo, Denver, Ireland? Cerner could easily expand jobs elsewhere. Wherever you put 15K good paying jobs, it's some form of improvement and _opportunity_ for that area, not necessarily guaranteed euphoria. This has a good chance of not only decreasing the decline of S KC but a better than 50% chance to create some form of momentum.

Who woulda thought S KC would get a boost like this, is not like it's creating more sprawl. KC North is growing, central core is getting relatively healthier overall and E and S KC are declining. This is the kind and scale of project that helps declining areas.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Three Trails Development

Post by Highlander »

earthling wrote:So other than downtown, where would be a better site? Airport, JoCo, Denver, Ireland? Cerner could easily expand jobs elsewhere. Wherever you put 15K good paying jobs, it's some form of improvement and _opportunity_ for that area, not necessarily guaranteed euphoria. This has a good chance of not only decreasing the decline of S KC but a better than 50% chance to create some form of momentum.

Who woulda thought S KC would get a boost like this, is not like it's creating more sprawl. KC North is growing, central core is getting relatively healthier overall and E and S KC are declining. This is the kind and scale of project that helps declining areas.
I'm all about concentrating assets, not spreading them around. But, if you have to put it somewhere other than downtown, the airport area at least has some critical mass. This project is trying to start yet another node in a small city with limited business assets already saturated with business centers. Think about it, there's the airport, Plaza, downtown, College Blvd, and Village West is starting to seek out office tenants. And I suspect there will never be 15,000 employees there - I would bet that it never even gets close to that amount.
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Re: Bannister Mall/Three Trails Development

Post by earthling »

^Yeah, I understand your point (and it's a very good point) but I also see this as an opportunity to decrease the decline of S KC and maybe even improve it, even if they 'only' add 7K jobs. There is already close to 3K there now.

If they do a good quality new urbanism style project (granted, not many that I've liked), it could have enough success to create momentum along that stretch of I-435, boosting KCMO population and workforce S of River. I understand that focusing on existing power centers make sense but there's nothing wrong with improving declining areas as well. Is much better than creating more sprawl.
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