P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)

[chrizow]

i kind of wish Cordish would just abandon the retail aspect and just go for more food/drink-type tenants.  i can't think of a single retailer that i would like to see down there.  a bookstore would be okay i guess, but i think the plaza b+n more than adequately fills that niche.  

retail is kind of weak anyway, unless it is some really special/unique boutique that is really bringing something to the table.  sequester "buying shit" to the internet and save our public space for more public experiences!  we really don't need a gap or levis store at 14th/Main.

[LenexatoKCMO]

What would you like to see delivered? 5-10 names.

I dont care if it is the Hello Fucking Kitty Boutique if it sells crap people will buy.  My personal tastes are about as irrelevant as retail on the moon.  Point is, they had YEARS to get whatever retail committments they were after and apparently couldn't get much of anything.  And now it will be years before it gets filled.  

[KCPowercat]

Don't you think its a bit rash to be calling for abandoning plans?  Seriously, this district is in its infancy.  This is crazy.

[trailerkid]

...This isn't the last year the city can get tax revenues from that block, right?  Let's take a little longer term view.

If that block was on the Plaza (which has also received major amounts of TIF) everyone would complain if they put in a Dress Barn, but again, that's the KC way. Throw something half-ass together instead of doing it right. IMHO, Cordish has been kicking ass and taking names with the tenants overall:

801 CHOPHOUSE

AMC MAINSTREET THEATRE

ANGELS ROCK BAR

BICE BISTRO

BRISTOL SEAFOOD GRILL

CHEFBURGER

CHIPOTLE MEXICAN GRILL

COSENTINO'S MARKET DOWNTOWN

ELEMENTS

FAMOUS DAVE'S BARBECUE

FLYING SAUCER DRAUGHT EMPORIUM

FRAN'S RESTAURANT

FUEGO

GENGHIS GRILL

GNC

GORDON BIERSCH BREWERY & RESTAURANT

HOWL AT THE MOON

JOS. A. BANK

KOBE JAPANESE STEAK & SEAFOOD

LIVING ROOM

LUCKY STRIKE LANES & LOUNGE

MAKER'S MARK BOURBON HOUSE & LOUNGE

MCFADDEN'S SPORTS SALOON

MOSAIC LOUNGE

PBR BIG SKY

PLAZA FORD IDEAL

POLISHED

RAGLAN ROAD

SAVVY COFFEE & WINEBAR

SHARK BAR

SPRINT STUDIO

TED'S MONTANA GRILL

TENGO SED CANTINA

THE INDIE ON MAIN

THE MARQUEE BAR & GRILL

THE MIDLAND by AMC

THE MIXX

THE PEACHTREE RESTAURANT

VININO WINE BAR & BISTRO

YUMMO YOGURT + SMOOTHIES

Everything from soul food to California-style fast casual to white tablecloth to party bar...groceries, concerts, and movies too.  :shock:

[aknowledgeableperson]

but the contract protects cordish and they're going to take their time to get the best product in there.

What a stretch.  And the Legends is just taking some time to reshuffle its tenant mix.

Yes, the city is hurting because of the empty space but then shouldn't Cordish?  Afterall the company either put its own funds to work in building the empty spaces and/or it borrowed money and is paying interest on the loan.  The question is: In this economy how long can Cordish hang on without income from this space?

[trailerkid]

What a stretch.  And the Legends is just taking some time to reshuffle its tenant mix.

Yes, the city is hurting because of the empty space but then shouldn't Cordish?  Afterall the company either put its own funds to work in building the empty spaces and/or it borrowed money and is paying interest on the loan.  The question is: In this economy how long can Cordish hang on without income from this space?

So why is the space empty if it is hurting Cordish which hasn't closed a single concept yet? Much longer lifespan that places like Hash House A Go Go, Caliente, or Banana Joe's...and now even Chili's + Saddle Ranch are dropping.

[trailerkid]

I dont care if it is the Hello Fucking Kitty Boutique if it sells crap people will buy.  My personal tastes are about as irrelevant as retail on the moon.  Point is, they had YEARS to get whatever retail committments they were after and apparently couldn't get much of anything.  And now it will be years before it gets filled.  

There are obvious choices in terms of tenants that won't do much to synergize the demographics between what is going on with the restaurant and entertainment angle and what should be happening over here. There are also your lame suggestions (Filene's Basement, CVS) which would work, but aren't why Cordish was brought to town. Since you've failed to back up your bitching, here are some suggestions I previously posted which I think would add the right character to a truly challenging task.

My ideas...

+cosmetics/bath (maybe like a indigo wild concept store? or even mall stores like lush or mac would work too)

+specialty beer store (specializing in imported beer, limited editions, bar and glassware, full speakeasy style bar in the back with cigar room) 

+ultra-hip mens/womens boutique (think standard style on crank)

+modern furnishings (boconcept, design within reach or local concept would work also)

+books/coffee (rainy day meets magazines & coffee)

+kitchen goods (sur la table would be best, but local operator like function junction would work)

+art gallery (stuff for rich people to hang in their homes and poor people to see in a gallery) 

+high end womens shoes/accessories (local collection of newest designer handbags and shoes)

+euro-based mass market fashion (somethinglike fcuk, mng or benetton) 

[aknowledgeableperson]

So why is the space empty if it is hurting Cordish

HUH?????????????????????????????????????????

Are you saying Cordish would have the empty retail space filled?  And since it is not filled it is not hurting Cordish?

[chrizow]

HUH?????????????????????????????????????????

Are you saying Cordish would have the empty retail space filled?  And since it is not filled it is not hurting Cordish?

he is saying that Cordish could probably instantly lease the space to a sub-par tenant for quick cash, but they apparently have the werewithal not to do so.  i'm sure they could get a Cricket store, check-cashing place, etc. in there overnight if they were that desperate.

[LenexatoKCMO]

There are also your lame suggestions (Filene's Basement, CVS)

Those weren't suggestions - they were part of an entirely different point but thanks for tossing out a good strawman.  You seem to completely miss where I am coming from on this - whether or not I have a personal preference in where I would personally like to shop doesn't make a hill of beans difference when evaluating the fact that they haven't delivered ANYTHING and don't appear to have the ability to deliver ANYTHING anytime soon.  

Your suggestions all look smart by the way - but unfortunately it doesn't appear that Cordish was able to get anything like it.  

[trailerkid]

HUH?????????????????????????????????????????

Are you saying Cordish would have the empty retail space filled?  And since it is not filled it is not hurting Cordish?

No. I'm saying if it was "hurting them" so bad they could fill it with total crap like you find all over the rest of the metro (Cici's, Mr. Goodcent's, Cricket, etc.). They haven't, but could.  

Jos A Bank, as much as people diss them, have a formula for locating a store which usually places them in certain types of areas with certain types of neighbors. It's a good sign to have them downtown when they also locate in retailer areas like Platte County, Leawood, Oak Park Mall, and Lee's Summit. Like Tigerfan said a lot of it is positioning your shopping center and getting the right tenants together. Opening the flood gates for crap like your favorites Golden Corral or whatever will scare away any tenant worth a shit.

[trailerkid]

Those weren't suggestions - they were part of an entirely different point but thanks for tossing out a good strawman.  You seem to completely miss where I am coming from on this - whether or not I have a personal preference in where I would personally like to shop doesn't make a hill of beans difference when evaluating the fact that they haven't delivered ANYTHING and don't appear to have the ability to deliver ANYTHING anytime soon.  

Your suggestions all look smart by the way - but unfortunately it doesn't appear that Cordish was able to get anything like it.  

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD...

Cordish is still working on the this project. They just announced Kobe (which is going into this block) on the web site within the last few days.

Where are you getting the information that they've given up and the block is finished?

Where are your comments in regard to 18th/Vine? How much public money was put there and how many tenants are there?

[trailerkid]

Kansas City is known as a city that will always choose having just something over something great. I cannot fathom this mentality in light of planning for something great over something that's...well...just something. It's happened with Kemper, happened with the baseball stadium renovations and now with P+L. I truly think P+L could really change the face of downtown. Instead of the city building on its momentum, it is trying to disrupt it and turn it into something more mediocre and in line with the very same repressive, 1970s mentality that has fucked this city over time and time again. I don't get this choice for just something over planning for something great. P+L was a great plan. It really was. There wouldn't have been the amount of excitement if it was a bad plan. I just will never get the mentality that is trying to turn it off and get just something out of it.   

Should be wait and develop a retail district downtown we can all be proud of? No...let's rush Dress Barn + Applebee's in there so we'll get some cash back fast and watch them abadon the area in 5 years.

Should we build a new baseball stadium that could be a jewel of the community and envy of all other cities? No...let's renovate the one we have because it has better parking and it's next to the highway.

Should we invest funds downtown to increase economic advantages in terms of business growth and tourism? No...downtown doens't deserve invest so let's worry about steel plates and sidewalks in Brookside.

and on and on...

The short-sightedness in this community is truly untolerable. It's almost like there is a complete void in terms of future planning and everyone is just stuck in the ways of yesterday. Great communities don't function this way and don't listen to the leadership stuck in the past. It's sad to see such viewpoints that cherish the immediate and waning rewards over the ones that represent progress and significant advancement.

[LenexatoKCMO]

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD...

Cordish is still working on the this project. They just announced Kobe (which is going into this block) on the web site within the last few days.

Great - another restaurant in this single use development- should really help boost the fri-sat evening foot traffic.  Oh wait . . .

Where are you getting the information that they've given up and the block is finished?

That's all well and good that they are going to keep trying - but it doesn't change the fact that they only landed a JABanks and don't appear to have any prospects on the horizon.  What gives you any confidence that they are going to deliver what you are hoping for?  How many retail developments you ever see turn into booming successes after a couple of years of tumble weeds blowing through?  Should we expect the Great Mall of the Great Plains to suddenly land a bunch of exciting tennants any day now?  All those vacant store fronts just have to be crying out to potential tennants about what a great opportunity there is. 

Where are your comments in regard to 18th/Vine? How much public money was put there and how many tenants are there?

By all means - the project has been badly bungled. 

[trailerkid]

Great - another restaurant in this single use development- should really help boost the fri-sat evening foot traffic.  Oh wait . . .

That's all well and good that they are going to keep trying - but it doesn't change the fact that they only landed a JABanks and don't appear to have any prospects on the horizon.  What gives you any confidence that they are going to deliver what you are hoping for?  How many retail developments you ever see turn into booming successes after a couple of years of tumble weeds blowing through?  Should we expect the Great Mall of the Great Plains to suddenly land a bunch of exciting tennants any day now?  All those vacant store fronts just have to be crying out to potential tennants about what a great opportunity there is. 


By all means - the project has been badly bungled. 

What tenants do you suggest they try to get?

[LenexatoKCMO]

What tenants do you suggest they try to get?

I really don't give a shit - something appropriate - something effective - something with crap people want - Something more than a single tennant.  If I list off every damn chain retailer in the country will that change the fact that they could apparently only get JABanks?

[trailerkid]

I really don't give a shit - something appropriate - something effective - something with crap people want - Something more than a single tennant.  If I list off every damn chain retailer in the country will that change the fact that they could apparently only get JABanks?

Again, the project is not done yet.

You hide your vitriol behind the fact that you don't have any better ideas than having nothing there.

I get it...JUST PUT SOMETHING THERE. How very "KC" of you.

[LenexatoKCMO]

Again, the project is not done yet.

Its been physically done for about a year.  The fact that it hasn't since been "done" by locating tennants in it is precisely the problem. 

You hide your vitriol behind the fact that you don't have any better ideas than having nothing there.

I am not a retail planner.  I am not a developer.  I am just a taxpayer that is going to have to foot the bill for this failure. 

I get it...JUST PUT SOMETHING THERE. How very "KC" of you.

Hey its all well and good to say that it should be filled with high class, appropriate tennants that will further the DT neighborhood and what not - I agree - but the window of opportunity has passed and the developer failed to do that and shows zero sign of being able to fix that.  It is nigh past time for fingers to start pointing - god knows Cordish is plenty used to doing the pointing, they ought to be able to handle being on the receiving end. 

[Midtownkid]

This just keeps going in circles.  Can't you guys just drop it.  btw Lenexa, do you not believe that they are going to make another announcement soon that is going to be 'great' per Tiger's hinting.

[LenexatoKCMO]

btw Lenexa, do you not believe that they are going to make another announcement soon that is going to be 'great' per Tiger's hinting.

I seriously doubt they have anything more than a single retailer or two to announce anywhere in the foreseeable future.