Religion...

[DanCa]

This is a serious question.  I am simply not a religious person at all.  I have never gotten into it and even though I did attend a Catholic elementary school in urban KCMO for a few years, I didn’t really get that much exposure to religion.

My wife is into it enough that she wants our kids to be involved and I respect that and think it’s a good thing for the most part to raise your kids with some religious morals etc or at least expose them to it.

They attend Peace Lutheran in SKC.  I’m trying to be involved, but it’s hard.  I even joined the church, but have not even gone for years.  I just see how religion really screws up a lot of people if they take it too far and it seems easy to take it too far.  To me, even making your life about religion (jesus etc) and everything else second is taking it too far.  Not to mention all the extremes out there.

Plus, I'm super busy and devoting time to religion just doesn't seem right when I barely have time to devote to myself and my family like I should.

So without making this a religious "debate", per say.  I am curious to know what others do.  Do you go to church, are you involved heavily?  How were you raised?

Again, just trying to get an idea of what others are like.

You sound a lot like me.  My partner was Catholic and attended Mass every Sunday the past few years, but I would have nothing to do with it.  Then with the arrival of twins, he wanted them to attend church, so we sort of got into it.  I pointed out the the Catholic church would probably not even baptize them since we're a gay couple, and how I didn't want them raised in a church that condemned their parents.  So we compromised and joined a Presbyterian church that's completely accepting of gay people and their focus is on environmentalism, and global/local mission work to help people in need, but not into converting people.  It's a large church, 100 year old gothic cathedral, with great music, pipe organ, etc.  The sermons are usually pretty good and you can take something positive away from it whether you're religious or not.  The people are great and do so much good in the community, I've found myself enjoying it, although we don't go every Sunday.  They're not into the whole "Bible literalism" thing and I think it's a healthy environment for our boys to grow up in.  As far as fitting it in, it's not too bad.  Services are limited to one hour so it doesn't take up your whole Sunday. 

[DanCa]

Which makes it interesting that the churches that are flourishing, overall, are the intensely evangelical, more fundamental megachurches.  Moderate, less "extroverted" churches are largely having a hard time keeping even their comparatively modestly numerated pews filled, counting basically on the attendance of the elderly. Particularly when you look at the demographics (as I used to have to do, holding a church job as a young adult), and see the dearth of 20-30-something churchgoers, EXCEPT in the charismatic megachurches.  It's tough to find people my age who incorporate the active practicing of a religion into their lives, period, and it's damned near impossible to find ones that are of a more moderate stripe, more understated in any evangelism, and/or more liberal in their viewpoints overall.   

I totally agree with you and see our Presbyterian church in Denver as unique.  It's very liberal in it's views and definitely has a large elderly/older group of members, but it also has many younger people joining, especially 30 somethings with babies/young children.  Total membership is around 2500 and they're bringing in new members left and right, baptizing babies twice per month.  Most of the new members come from the Stapleton neighborhood where we live and from older neighborhoods where there are many young people moving back into the city.  I guess the church's liberal (gay accepting/environmentalist/helping those in need) mentality is in line with younger people in Denver, so it's thriving. 

[phuqueue]

The problem with the Brittany Spears example (man WHY of all people did this twit find her way into our thread????) is that people don't go a Church every Sunday to hear her words.  People don't pray to Brittany Spears and they don't worship her.   What Jesus said, has been said before by many others.  And since.

Ergo, the people who follow him surely see him as different.

Well, I was merely speaking for myself.  Obviously those who go to church every Sunday to hear Jesus's words believe that he was the son of God and therefore not insane when he said so.  I don't believe in any god, so I don't believe Jesus could be his son.  You (or someone else, I don't really remember at this point) made the point that someone genuinely claiming to be the son of God is either telling the truth or insane.  I would grant that if Jesus truly believed himself to be the son of God, then he was probably insane, and I wouldn't rely on him to teach me anything meaningful about life.  But that doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't still say some things that I can agree with, things that gel well with my own beliefs.  And that's where Britney Spears comes into the discussion, too -- I wouldn't rely on her to teach me anything either, but hell, if she says something that I agree with anyway, I'm not afraid to acknowledge that she made a good point.

The Christian life (since you mentioned the Bible) is 90% about your daily life and 10% about your spritual one.  To the extent you don't find any valuable life lessons in that book - and I don't see how that's possible - then the Bible isn't for you.   And won't help you here on Earth.

Didn't necessarily say I couldn't find valuable life lessons in the Bible, just that I don't turn to it for guidance (come to think of it, I don't really turn to anything for guidance...maybe my parents occasionally, but that's about it).  When you cut out all the supernatural stuff, there are lots of good ideas in the Bible.  Jesus's general philosophy, treating people as you want to be treated, let he who is without sin cast the first stone, etc are all great ideas that I agree with and I wish more people would practice themselves.  I think the Bible has a lot of good things to say, as I'd imagine virtually all religious texts probably do.  I just don't rely on it myself.

[phxcat]

I totally agree with you and see our Presbyterian church in Denver as unique.  It's very liberal in it's views and definitely has a large elderly/older group of members, but it also has many younger people joining, especially 30 somethings with babies/young children.  Total membership is around 2500 and they're bringing in new members left and right, baptizing babies twice per month.  Most of the new members come from the Stapleton neighborhood where we live and from older neighborhoods where there are many young people moving back into the city.  I guess the church's liberal (gay accepting/environmentalist/helping those in need) mentality is in line with younger people in Denver, so it's thriving. 

This is a little bit off topic, but I was just thinking while reading this that if (as most of the pro-marriage amendment churches would say) it is true that gay marriage is a threat to the church's first amendment freedom to only marry a man and a woman (which its not), then wouldn't it stand to reason that a gay marriage law would violate a church such as yours first amendment right to marry who it choosses?

[aknowledgeableperson]

I have a theory that some people....some....flock to mega churches for the anonymity of it all.  They can simply blend in with the enormous crowd and therefore not stand out...or be called out....by the pastor.  It's a way of "doing your time" for the week in an environment where nobody is going to notice you...so being a zombie and spacing out during the entire service is that much easier.  It also becomes a great venue for people-watching, as well as making new friends.

I added the bold above because from some of the people I know that is one important reason for going to the mega church, which seems to be the opposite of "doing your time" for the week.  And the church is not just for Sunday services but for many other activities as well so that the church becomes home to most of their lives outside of being at home or at work.  The churchs provide sports for kids and adults, social gatherings - big in a church building and small in one's home, plus network support such as babysitting children of others and the favor is returned when they babysit yours, or going to doctor's appointments, etc.

They think Jesus is the son of God

Yes, he is the son of God but his mother is human and he lived his life as a human.  He did believe he was someone special (stayed behind at the temple to preach at an early age) and if you believe a certain timeline then his public preaching days did not begin until he was 30 and that phase of his life lasted 3 years.

a gay marriage law would violate a church such as yours first amendment right to marry who it choosses? 

I am not sure if I understand correctly but here is an explanation, maybe.  You have a civil marriage and a religious marriage.  A justice of the peace can perform only a civil marriage whereas a preacher, given the right from the state, can perform the civil marriage in a religious setting and therefore perform both the civil and religious wedding ceremony.  As a religious person a preacher is free to perform or not perform (such as a Catholic priest not marrying a couple when one is divorced and does not have an annullment - not sure what happens if said divorce happened before a conversion to the Catholic faith) a religious marriage ceremony for a couple.  And some religious may not recognize a marriage if the marriage was performed by a justice of the peace and not a minister and will require a marriage ceremony by a minister.
On a side note, I may be wrong but I always thought that if the states would have recognized civil unions 20 years ago or so between homosexual couples with full rights of marriage then the issue of "gay marriage" now would not be quite the issue it is.

I like to think that someone like me, who tries to live what I consider to be a good life, would have a chance to go to heaven if there is a God. I mean, sure, today, I don't believe it at all. But I don't feel like that's my fault. I can't make myself believe something is true, that I believe is false. Can you make yourself believe in unicorns? Santa Claus? Leprechauns? It's just not fair, in my opinion, to cast me into hell (or exclude me from heaven) due to what ought to be considered very human and uncontrollable failings by a loving God. I wouldn't mind believing in God, I just can't. And I have to think that if there is a God, he's the one who made me this way, and therefore it is his responsibility to make me see the reality of his existence, if he exists.

Interesting.  For one thing, yes one can say that God made you the way you are.  But at the same time He also gave you an item call "Free Will" in that you are free to choose what you want to do and want to believe.  Belief is God is just that, a "belief" and you accept that belief without having to be shown that God is a fact (Definitions of belief at Dictionary.com. ... 2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof:).  You choose not to believe in God then you are free to suffer the consequences of that choice.  I am not saying I believe in that in a strict sense because I still have a problem with accepting that completely.  Not so much in your case since it appears you have made a choice not to believe but what about those who have not had that choice, such as those born 4,000 years ago or those born recently but will not be exposed to God before they die such as those living in a primative society or die before the age of reason.  And even in your case, if you choose not to believe but have led a good life you certainly don't deserve 'hell' so what happens?
Of course, after death you are not a being in the sense that you have a body.  For many after death it is a spirit but for Christians, at least, it is a soul.  If you don't believe in a spirit or a soul then why worry about what happens after death?  However, if you do have an inkling that you just might have a spirit or a soul then I take it that you just might believe in a god(s) or a devine being(s) but just may not accept it or believe it.

(I admit that I find homosexuality morally distasteful, but I do not think it warrants damnation)

My take is the state (government) should not be concerned about homosexuality, mainly because it is not a matter of choice for the individual.  If practicing homosexuality, and pre-marital sex, is a sin then that is a matter between God and those individuals practicing those acts.

[KCMax]

Allowing gay marriage only means governments can recognize unions between same sex couples. Churches are under no obligation to marry people, just as they are under no obligation to marry heterosexual couples. Catholic churches are well within their right to not marry me since I'm not Catholic, and they are well in their right not to marry same sex couples, even if it is legal.

[phxcat]

Oh, I know full well the legal implications and the differences between marriage and civil unions.  I was just really responding to the fears I have heard from the churches about the threat caused by gay marriage.  That is why I had added the parts in parentheses.

[ignatius]

Am curious what Jesus believers think of this...

On being a  messiah..
- Oppressed Jews were seeking a messiah to save them from their woes (according to Old Testament)
- There were other religions before them that had ideas of saviors and messiahs.
- At the time of around Jesus, there were many wanabee/poser Jewish saviors (according to bible as well)
- When Jesus came around, he was just one of many of these wanabees.  Nearly all Jews of the time rejected him as the savior (and are still waiting) but a handful accepted it, creating the beginnings of the Christian cult.

What's really interesting is that if the mainstream Jews did accept Jesus as their 'savior' it would have never become a separate Christian movement.  Moreover, you pretty much had to be born into Judaism so it would have never grown much.  Things that make you say, hmm...

On son of god(s)...
- There were many religions before Jesus that had the idea of being a son of gods.

Here’s a sample list of  saviors, ‘son of gods’ that existed well before Jesus and/or have a similar Jesus story, some of whom were crucified or executed:  Adad of Assyria , Adonis, Apollo, Heracles ("Hercules") and Zeus of Greece , Alcides of Thebes , Attis of Phrygia , Baal of Phoenicia , Bali of Afghanistan ,  Beddu of Japan,,  Crite of Chaldea , Deva Tat of Siam , Hesus of the Druids , Horus, Osiris, and Serapis of Egypt,  Indra of Tibet/India ,  Jao of Nepal ,  Krishna of India ,  Mikado of the Sintoos , Mithra of Persia, Wittoba of the Bilingonese ,  Xamolxis of Thrace ,  Zarathustra/Zoroaster of Persia , Zoar of the Bonzes

Some characters born of a virgin…
Buddha, Krishna, Horus of Egypt
Horus and Mithra were claimed to be born on Dec 25th

Religions that had disciples..
Buddha had 12, Horus of Egypt and Mithra had 12 companions (and they performed miracles)

Resurrected characters..
Horus of Egypt killed, buried in tomb and resurrected.
Mithra was buried in a tomb and rose from after 3 days of death
Krishna rose from the dead and ascended into heaven
Prometheus of Greece was crucified, suffered and rose from the dead.

This is just the tip of the iceberg.  Feel free to challenge any of these but keep in mind that your supernatural 'history' can just as easily be challenged.  I have no interest in defending any of these claims.  After all, history tends to be written by those who 'win the war' or have the political power.  What we hardly get is an "accurate" or unbiased account, even of recent history.

Seems reasonable to suggest that the Jesus story is really just a compilation of many previous religions.  He didn’t even leave his own writings.  Most of his life was documented 70+ years later (accepted by even stringent Christian historians) and very much reworked 300 years later with Constantine.  It was packaged for mass consumption and refined for the times and eventually gained political power with Constantine.  Keep in mind that mankind was far more driven by superstition than an understanding of the natural world.  It was the norm.  And it was easier (and the standard method in many cultures) to attribute guidelines of living life to pop culture supernatural forces than leaders of the time.  Many leaders knew this and manipulated it.

So much has been borrowed by other cultures it’s hard to think of a significant amount that is uniquely Christian. In addition to the above, prayer, altar worship and many rituals were borrowed from the pagans.  Baptism was likely borrowed from the Essenes.  The list goes on…

Do Jesus believers reject history of other religions and assume that Jesus what the first of his kind? 

[kcdcchef]

Do Jesus believers reject history of other religions and assume that Jesus what the first of his kind? 

yes, they certainly do. the hard core bible thumpers go out of their way to cram it down your throats as well. it is almost like a cult following the way they refuse to listen, bend, etc.

you ask them for proof of jesus exsistence, all they can offer is the bible, and say look around you. now i say, look around you, at the intricate workings of a living being, a planet, a solar system, etc, that it offers proof of a god. but that is me as a jew. then a lot of the athiasts and agnostics will go to war with me at that point.

religion is fickle at best. anyone need proof of this need do no more than go to any church any sunday and see the many converts. which, is what i love most about judiasm, we really dont want any converts. hell, i have come to believe judiasm is almost like being agnostic, means you are more unsure than anything.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Do Jesus believers reject history of other religions and assume that Jesus what the first of his kind? 

I can only speak for one "Jesus believer" and say I don't need to reject the history of other religions nor assume that Jesus was the first of his kind (nor the last).  The only item that is important is that Jesus is the One.

Yes, at the time many of the Jews rejected Jesus as a Mesiah but I would believe that is because many felt the Mesiah would be like a King David, form a powerful army and deliver them from the Romans and make their region a powerhouse it once was.  However, Jesus was not here to make a kingdom of this world but to have a kingdom after this world.  If the early believers in Jesus really wanted to fabricate a "personality" to establish a church why create a being who was so simple, meek, and powerless?

As far as I know of Jesus did not have writings and therefore could leave nothing behind.  He communicated by speech not by writings.  It was his followers who left the writings.

And why does Christianity have to be 'unique"?  Afterall wouldn't the people of the time adapt some of their customs to conform to their new beliefs?  Much like modern day society has adapted some of the religious customs and secularized them - like Christmas.

[ShowMeKC]

Am curious what Jesus believers think of this...

On being a  messiah..
- Oppressed Jews were seeking a messiah to save them from there woes (documented in Old Testament) Completely accurate and is what Christianity has always taught. Jews were indeed seeking a messiah for a long time, including up to even his coming
- There were other religions before them that had ideas of saviors and messiahs. Nothing wrong with this, there are other religions that have had ideas similar to Christianity and Judaism. Christianity is simply possesses the fullness of the truth. Christians originally converted pagans not by telling them everything they believed was wrong, but by showing the pagans the parts of their religions that are fulfilled in Christianity.
- At the time of around Jesus, there were many wanabee/poser Jewish saviors (pretty well documented) Again, completely true and accurate. Christians would NEVER deny this. The NT even speaks about this. They decide to not kill the Apostles immediately because if Christ was false and truly died, the Apostles would back down and run just like the disciples of all the other false messiahs. Their reaction to his death and resurrection was completely contrary to other false messiahs and their disciples, which gave them even more believability among the doubters.
- When Jesus came around, he was just one of many of these wanabees.  Many Jews of the time rejected him as the savior (and are still waiting) but a handful accepted it, creating the beginnings of the Christian cult. Again, completely accurate, Christians would NEVER ever deny this. This was never something that caused harm to Christianity and was never something Christians would have denied. Christians (especially the earliest Christians) see themselves as being the continuation of what is termed as "God's chosen people" from the OT. Traditional Christians (that is, those continuing the traditions/teachings of early Christianity) believe that modern Judaism is no longer to be considered "God's chosen people"

On son of god(s)...
- There were many religions before Jesus that had the idea of being a son of gods. Again, nothing wrong with this, we see Christianity as the fullness of truth and the fulfillment of human religions. These other religions are simply just corruptions of the truth and over time humans have changed it to suit their own (perceived) needs and desires. The norm of Christian preaching originally was NOT arguing and telling people they are wrong and going to hell... Original Christian preaching was done by taking people's beliefs and showing them how they are actually fulfilled in Christianity. Like the unknown god spoken about in the NT that pagans worshiped. The Apostle told them that one unknown god is now known and is the one true God and the only God.

Here’s a sample list of  saviors, ‘son of gods’ that existed well before Jesus and have a similar Jesus story, some of whom were crucified or executed:  Adad of Assyria , Adonis, Apollo, Heracles ("Hercules") and Zeus of Greece , Alcides of Thebes , Attis of Phrygia , Baal of Phoenicia , Bali of Afghanistan ,  Beddu of Japan,,  Crite of Chaldea , Deva Tat of Siam , Hesus of the Druids , Horus, Osiris, and Serapis of Egypt,  Indra of Tibet/India ,  Jao of Nepal ,  Krishna of India ,  Mikado of the Sintoos , Mithra of Persia, Wittoba of the Bilingonese ,  Xamolxis of Thrace ,  Zarathustra/Zoroaster of Persia , Zoar of the Bonzes

Some characters born of a virgin…
Buddha, Krishna, Horus of Egypt
Horus and Mithra were claimed to be born on Dec 25th

Religions that had disciples..
Buddha had 12, Horus of Egypt and Mithra had 12 companions (and they performed miracles)

Resurrected characters..
Horus of Egypt killed, buried in tomb and resurrected.
Mithra was buried in a tomb and rose from after 3 days of death
Krishna rose from the dead and ascended into heaven
Prometheus of Greece was crucified, suffered and rose from the dead.

This is just the tip of the iceberg.  Feel free to challenge any of these but keep in mind that your supernatural 'history' can just as easily be challenged.  I have no interest in defending any of these claims.  After all, history tends to be written by those who 'win the war' or have the political power.  We we hardly get is an "accurate" account, even of recent history.

Seems reasonable to suggest that the Jesus story is really just a compilation of many previous religions.  He didn’t even leave his own writings.  Most of his life was documented 70+ years later and very much reworked 300 years later with Constantine.  It was packaged for mass consumption and refined for the times and eventually gained political power with Constantine.  Keep in mind that mankind was far more driven by superstition than an understanding of the natural world.  It was the norm.  And it was easier (and the standard method in many cultures) to attribute guidelines of living life to pop culture supernatural forces than leaders of the time.  Many leaders knew this and manipulated it. Actually, while Constantine made it the official religion, the Church was the one setting forth "Ecumenical Councils" and fought the heresies at the time and things were agreed upon by consensus. The canon of scripture was NEVER affirmed until after the Great Schism when the Protestant Reformation was causing trouble for the Roman Catholics. In fact, the Orthodox still do not have an official canon (through a primary decision), though it has been reached through consensus. The Orthodox have the most books in their scripture and still use the form of the OT that was used in the days of Christ and the Apostles and before (the Septuagint, which is the oldest book in the world). They also use the writings of other Early Christians and Saints, including writings such as the Didache, the Protoevangelion of James, Shepherd of Hermas, writings of Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement of Rome, Irenaeus etc... In fact, many writings, even in the days of Constantine and after were considered scripture that aren't today, like the Didache and Protoevangelion of James. In fact, often the book of Revelation and Hebrews weren't considered scripture by some Christians. The Early Church never had an official canon, and in fact, early on, most Christians didn't even have all the gospels or epistles available to them.

So much has been borrowed by other cultures it’s hard to think of anything that is uniquely Christian. In addition to the above, prayer, altar worship and many rituals were borrowed from the pagans.  Baptism was likely borrowed from the Essenes.  The list goes on…

Do Jesus believers reject history of other religions and assume that Jesus what the first of his kind?  Christians have NEVER assumed that Jesus and the things written of in the New Testament were ever original and dissimilar to things in other pagan religions. Christians have always said that it is the fulfillment of those religions. Often we can also say that those other religions were corrupted by man and in fact are simply false versions of the truth fed by Satan, who has always tried to put forward false Gods, false Christs etc...

Do not ever assume that Protestant or Catholic beliefs were always the norm in Christianity. Protestantism never existed until 1517 A.D. The Roman Catholic Church never existed until its modern form until (about) 1054 A.D. (that is, existing on its own, some of it's modern teachings were adopted by it alone as early as 589 A.D. though this still caused much controversy in the Church overall)

I'm not intending any offense to Protestants or to Roman Catholics. But we all have to recognize that early Christians were far different than modern ones and most Early Christians believed and practiced MUCH differently than most modern Christians.

[kcdcchef]

Allowing gay marriage only means governments can recognize unions between same sex couples. Churches are under no obligation to marry people, just as they are under no obligation to marry heterosexual couples. Catholic churches are well within their right to not marry me since I'm not Catholic, and they are well in their right not to marry same sex couples, even if it is legal.

the funny thing on gay marriage from a church standpoint is that the same charlie churchgoer that you question about why it is wrong, quote old testament scripture that also says it is wrong to shave, eat pork, keep company with women while not married to them, etc, etc. and they get on their high horse while eating their b.l.t., playing the lottery that their messiah condemned, and swear like a sailor. gotta love the hypocracy.

[IraGlacialis]

the funny thing on gay marriage from a church standpoint is that the same charlie churchgoer that you question about why it is wrong, quote old testament scripture that also says it is wrong to shave, eat pork, keep company with women while not married to them, etc, etc. and they get on their high horse while eating their b.l.t., playing the lottery that their messiah condemned, and swear like a sailor. gotta love the hypocracy.

Exactly. Many hardcore firebrands accuse moderate Christians of being "cafeteria Christians", when they themselves have clean-shaven faces, eat pork, etc.

[ShowMeKC]

kcdcchef, Christianity is a religion of sinners and yes, hypocrites...

"A brother sinned and the presbyter ordered him to go out of church. But Abba Bessarion got up and went out with him, saying, 'I, too, am a sinner. -The Desert Fathers"

It doesn't give Christians a free ride in their sin just becuase they are a Christian. Do not look to just any Christian too see Christianity, look towards the Saints and their examples.

[KCKev]

Christians don't go by the old testament. Besides, old testament times was the reason for Jesus as the peoples of that time where so full of sin God was ashamed.

[aknowledgeableperson]

the funny thing on gay marriage from a church standpoint is that the same charlie churchgoer that you question about why it is wrong, quote old testament scripture that also says it is wrong to shave, eat pork, keep company with women while not married to them, etc, etc. and they get on their high horse while eating their b.l.t., playing the lottery that their messiah condemned, and swear like a sailor. gotta love the hypocracy.

If we were not sinners then why would we need churches?    :)


And that hypocracy will be dealt with by God in the afterlife.  That is why I believe that you hate the sin but love the sinner (but don't take that to mean make love with  :lol:)

[kcdcchef]

Christians don't go by the old testament. Besides, old testament times was the reason for Jesus as the peoples of that time where so full of sin God was ashamed.

since when kev? every christian / catholic / methodist / etc church i have been to over the past 30+++ years has quoted old testament stuff all of the time. so, they no longer live by it? since when exactly?

like lewis black said, you guys take your half, we'll take ours!

[AllThingsKC]

Exactly. Many hardcore firebrands accuse moderate Christians of being "cafeteria Christians", when they themselves have clean-shaven faces, eat pork, etc.

Christians aren't under Old Testament law.  So, it doesn't matter if Christians eat pork or have clean shaven faces.  Now, there are still several various ways in which Christians can be hypocrites.  But, this is not one of them.

As far as same sex marriage, it is mentioned in the New Testament also, which is why Christians bring that up today and not the pork, shaving, etc.

On being a  messiah..
- Oppressed Jews were seeking a messiah to save them from their woes (documented in Old Testament)
- There were other religions before them that had ideas of saviors and messiahs.
- At the time of around Jesus, there were many wanabee/poser Jewish saviors (pretty well documented)
- When Jesus came around, he was just one of many of these wanabees.  Nearly all Jews of the time rejected him as the savior (and are still waiting) but a handful accepted it, creating the beginnings of the Christian cult.

Awesome questions, ignatius! 


I don't know what most Christians would say to this, but...  ... Well, actually I think I do know what most Christians would say to this.  They would probably say something like, "I don't know.  I love Jesus." 

But, let me try to answer the question for you, at least from my own opinion.  I'm not sure if this is how most Christians would answer or not, it's soley my opinion on the questions you've asked.  Here goes:

There's no doubt in my mind that Jesus wasn't "the first of his kind" nor do I believe He will be the last.  But, I think Jesus did things at least slightly differently than the others before Him.  For example:

• He quoted scriptures that foretold of His coming.  Most of those scriptures are in the Old Testament books of Daniel & Isaiah.  There are other places also, but Daniel and Isaiah have the most popular ones, I think.
• Perfomed signs, wonders, healings, and miracles.  These no doubt had people believe.  Not that the others before didn't do signs and wonders, but...
• ...He didn't do His own writings.  So, the people who documented Jesus' miracles either made it all up or were so amazed at His works, that they wrote it down.

On son of god(s)...
- There were many religions before Jesus that had the idea of being a son of gods.

Here’s a sample list of  saviors, ‘son of gods’ that existed well before Jesus and/or have a similar Jesus story, some of whom were crucified or executed:  Adad of Assyria , Adonis, Apollo, Heracles ("Hercules") and Zeus of Greece , Alcides of Thebes , Attis of Phrygia , Baal of Phoenicia , Bali of Afghanistan ,  Beddu of Japan,,  Crite of Chaldea , Deva Tat of Siam , Hesus of the Druids , Horus, Osiris, and Serapis of Egypt,  Indra of Tibet/India ,  Jao of Nepal ,  Krishna of India ,  Mikado of the Sintoos , Mithra of Persia, Wittoba of the Bilingonese ,  Xamolxis of Thrace ,  Zarathustra/Zoroaster of Persia , Zoar of the Bonzes

• Jesus not only claimed to be the "Son of God," He claimed to be GOD!  In the Bible, Jesus forgave sins which had many people asking "Who can forgive sins but God alone?"  Some people believed because they thought he must be from God if He could forgive sins, while many others just got angry at Jesus because He made Himself out to be equal with God.

Some characters born of a virgin…
Buddha, Krishna, Horus of Egypt
Horus and Mithra were claimed to be born on Dec 25th

• December 25th is not important, IMO.    Nowhere in the Bible does it mention that "Jesus was born on December 25th."  We may not know eaxctly when Jesus was born, but it is only celebrated on December 25th.  We have the early Christians to thank for that.  They either picked it because it was what they knew from other religions OR they picked December 25th to kind of "combat" the other religions.  Either way, the December 25th date is man made and not from Jesus Himself.

Religions that had disciples..
Buddha had 12, Horus of Egypt and Mithra had 12 companions (and they performed miracles)

There were also 12 Tribes of Israel.    Jesus may have started with 12 disciples, but ended up with 11, since Judas betrayed Him.

So, besides Judas, who doesn't love the number 12?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on3X5j4sA8s

Resurrected characters..
Horus of Egypt killed, buried in tomb and resurrected.
Mithra was buried in a tomb and rose from after 3 days of death
Krishna rose from the dead and ascended into heaven
Prometheus of Greece was crucified, suffered and rose from the dead.

Speaking soley in terms of documents, it is documented that over 500 people saw Jesus after the resurrection.  However, that's not enough people, IMO.  While I believe that are enough documents (as well as other things) to at the very least make a case for the resurrection, I personally do not believe that enough people actually saw Jesus after the resurrection.  Also, Jesus ascending to Heaven is really poorly documented, IMO.  Only a handful of people actually saw Him ascend to Heaven.  I don't think that's enough.  Does that mean that someone shouldn't believe?  Of course not, because there is a good amount of "proof" (for lack of a better word), especailly for it happening so long ago.  I just believe that there should be even more documents.

This is just the tip of the iceberg.  Feel free to challenge any of these but keep in mind that your supernatural 'history' can just as easily be challenged.  I have no interest in defending any of these claims.  After all, history tends to be written by those who 'win the war' or have the political power.  What we hardly get is an "accurate" or unbiased account, even of recent history.

I'm not trying to say anything like, "Yeah, well our God did A, B, and C!  Did X, Y, or Z do any of that?  NO!"  I'm just trying to give my opinion on the questions you asked.  And, for the record, I'm trying really hard to be as unbias as possible.

I will say this: as far as history being written by those who "win the war" or have the policitical power, I agree!  But, I do not believe that the really early Christians had either of those.  Most, if not all, of what we know about Jesus was written AFTER Jesus was long gone.  So, without their "Lord," on the Earth, I think the early Christians certainly didn't feel like they had won the war or had the political power to change history.  Yet, we're talking about Jesus today.

Seems reasonable to suggest that the Jesus story is really just a compilation of many previous religions.  He didn’t even leave his own writings.  Most of his life was documented 70+ years later (accepted by even stringent Christian historians) and very much reworked 300 years later with Constantine.  It was packaged for mass consumption and refined for the times and eventually gained political power with Constantine.  Keep in mind that mankind was far more driven by superstition than an understanding of the natural world.  It was the norm.  And it was easier (and the standard method in many cultures) to attribute guidelines of living life to pop culture supernatural forces than leaders of the time.  Many leaders knew this and manipulated it.

Yep!  And what if I were to tell you that I believe the early Christians did manipulate the Bible?  Gasp! 

There are passages in the Bible that I believe shouldn't be there!  The last few versus of Mark 16 and somewhere in the Book of John (I forget where).  The earlist manuscripts do not have those versus.  I think that they were added by the Church years and years later.  Therfore, if we have at least 2 parts of the Bible that I think shouldn't be in there, then it stands to reason that we're probably missing parts of the Bible as well.

So much has been borrowed by other cultures it’s hard to think of a significant amount that is uniquely Christian. In addition to the above, prayer, altar worship and many rituals were borrowed from the pagans.  Baptism was likely borrowed from the Essenes.  The list goes on…

You are right in saying that prayer, worship, baptism are NOT unique to Christianity.  Of course some rituals like alter worship and prayer were in place long before Christianity!  The Jews were among the first people to pray, worship, etc. (see: Old Testament).  I don't know that Christianity "borrowed" prayer and worship, but rather simply continued it.

Do Jesus believers reject history of other religions and assume that Jesus what the first of his kind? 

I don't.  And, I don't think most Christians do either.  I do think that many Christians believe that Jesus did do at least a few things differently, thus making Him more unique.

Further, NONE of the what I said in this post are reasons why I believe what I believe.  Based on this post alone, there is not enough to make me believe anything.  I have countless other reasons for believing the way I do.




And there you have it!  I hope I could at least shed some light on the questions you asked.

[kcdcchef]

Christians aren't under Old Testament law.  So, it doesn't matter if Christians eat pork or have clean shaven faces.  Now, there are still several various ways in which Christians can be hypocrites.  But, this is not one of them.

As far as same sex marriage, it is mentioned in the New Testament also, which is why Christians bring that up today and not the pork, shaving, etc.

someone please show me this, word for word, where, in this book that was translated HALF A DOZEN TIMES BEFORE MAKING IT TO ENGLISH, that it says this, from your messiah. remember, the book was translated many times over, in multiple now dead languages, latin, hebrew, before making it to english.

oh, and december 25th is ripped off from the pagans, like all other holiday rituals.

[AllThingsKC]

since when kev? every christian / catholic / methodist / etc church i have been to over the past 30+++ years has quoted old testament stuff all of the time. so, they no longer live by it? since when exactly?

like lewis black said, you guys take your half, we'll take ours!

Chef, the OT gets quoted so much by Christians because it's in the Bible.  Why is it in the Christian Bible?

• Christians believe in the same YHWH as the Jews.  Therefore, Christians use the OT to explain how the Earth was made and blah, blah, blah.
• Christians are taught to bless Israel (Genesis 12:3) and to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
• The OT is Israel's history.  The OT is taught in Israeli schools.
• The OT contains scriptures that predict the coming of Christ like in Daniel & Isaiah (Christians believe).
• The wisdom in Proverbs is great.
• The story of Job is great.
• The worhip of the Psalms are great.
• Song of Solomon is in relation to Christ and His church (Christians believe).