Religion...

[beautyfromashes]

I really enjoyed this conversation, even though most of you are heathen and going to hell!

[kcdcchef]

I really enjoyed this conversation, even though most of you are heathen and going to hell!

i personally am shocked we managed to get into page 5 of this without a fight. totally amazing.

[mean]

I've never read about Wotan, not a whole lot about Yaweh, but who can be absolutely 100% sure???? Agnostic on that subject.

Sorry, by Yaweh I meant the Christian God.

I'm just trying to figure out whether you'd classify yourself as agnostic in favor of the Christian God but agnostic against other Gods from other pantheons (could be Wotan, Zeus, Ra, Apollo, the specific God isn't important). The reason I ask is that, according to my understanding of what you're saying, if I give God a 1 in a billion chance of existing, and you give God a 1 in a billion chance of not existing, then we're both technically agnostic, which is an interpretation I think is interesting. However, I don't know any Christians, even ones who admit they believe there's a small chance God may not exist, that would say they are agnostic.

Anyway, it's not really important stuff, I just enjoy reading perspectives from people who are completely different.

Definitely, but as I'm older than you, I vividly remember how hated she was. But she did a lot of good for her followers.

Yeah, atheists don't get much love. It doesn't help that people like Dawkins are so abrasive, he probably deserves to be disliked a little for being so condescending, but it strikes me as deeply ironic that so many Christians hated O'Hair with such passion when I suspect Jesus (at least Jesus as I have come to understand his teachings) would have told them to turn the other cheek and pray at home.

I really enjoyed this conversation, even though most of you are heathen and going to hell!

That's where all the interesting people will be.

[GRID]

Hell sounds more interesting than worshiping somebody or something.  If there is a god, I don't look forward to going up there and bowing down every five seconds.

I'd rather go play with fire or something.  Lava is pretty cool stuff,  I watch the discovery channel.  I can throw stuff in it and watch it melt.

Clouds are boring and following god around in the clouds?  It just doesn’t sound like fun.

But now, no matter what I do in life, I will go to hell because of this single post?  But I'm forgiven for it right?

Religion is just a total mystery to me.

I agree chef, I’m have some renewed faith in the forum, even after Spears came into the conversation, the thread has maintained its integrity!

[kcdcchef]

Hell sounds more interesting than worshiping somebody or something.  If there is a god, I don't look forward to going up there and bowing down every five seconds.

I'd rather go play with fire or something.  Lava is pretty cool stuff,  I watch the discovery channel.  I can throw stuff in it and watch it melt.

Clouds are boring and following god around in the clouds?  It just doesn’t sound like fun.

But now, no matter what I do in life, I will go to hell because of this single post?  But I'm forgiven for it right?

Religion is just a total mystery to me.

I agree chef, I’m have some renewed faith in the forum, even after Spears came into the conversation, the thread has maintained its integrity!

what i tell anyone wanting to explore religion is try unitarian universalism. they accept everyone and everything, athiasts and agnostics too. they generally get together on sundays just like any church, and just talk about the mysteries of life. my wife and i have done it off and on over the past few years, i actually enjoy it. since i am a jew and she is a very unsure christian, religion is a mystery to us both, since we fail to agree on it.

as far as your sinning and forgiveness, that is the part that is bizarre to me. ted bundy goes out and rapes, brutally sodomizes, and murders close to 100 women. but, one hour before he gets electrocuted in the chair, he prays for forgiveness for what he knew was wrong all along, and gets to go to this heaven. ummmm, yeah, okay. that is not full of holes?

the thing becoming more commonplace in religion is the acceptance of others. didnt used to be that way. not anymore, most religions in this country are finding a way to get along. you used to be persecuted for being a catholic, a jew, a mormon, etc. not so much anymore. but, the most recent primaries proved to us that we do care too much, as we again and again questioned a mans faith based on being mormon.

i can never in my life recall a time when religion came to light as much as it did in 2000 and 2004, hearing constantly about a man of faith, and a good christian man with good morals over and over. made me want to scream it was so goddamn depressing.

in the end, leading a good life and being a good person has to count for something!!!

[loftguy]

My life, or my ADHD, causes me to really hit and miss this forum.  Following this conversation intermittently throughout the day, I've found myself pondering the observations shared.  Y'all are a pretty thoughtful bunch.

My position?  I've experienced a smorgasbord of religious thought and practice.  As a kid I was drug to fundamentalist christian activities 3 to 5 times weekly. That ended at about age 13, as I started questioning with unsatisfying responses.  Since then, I've been in Sioux sweat lodges, danced with Sufi dervishes, meditated with Thai Buddists, prayed at the Wailing Wall and watched in wonder as a woman "got the spirit", writhing against me in a pew, speaking in tongues (I enjoy a good gospel choir, too). 

The net result is that I know very little, but it's sure interesting.  Religion is so many things.  It's metaphysics, it's social conditioning, it's conjecture, crowd control, politics, big business, faith, and answering the unanswerable, all in mixed proportions according to your "belief".

My belief?  "G-d" is the energy that makes this experience possible.  As it holds together molecules and spins the various satellites, it allows this experience of life as I know it.  Everything is a miracle and it never ceases to intrigue me.  My guiding thought, beyond the appreciation for my moment, is tied to the Jewish precept of free will.  Simply put, we, as humans, are given something more than the animals around us possess.  We have the ability to determine right from wrong in every thing we do. The rest is up to us.

[GRID]

in the end, leading a good life and being a good person has to count for something!!!

Yea, that's my thinking.  And building the next 100 million dollar mega church on prime land in the suburbs that won't pay any taxes shouldn't be part of that equation.  And people think casinos are bad .

Anyway, I think I will be going to church more often as my oldest goes through confirmation and it’s good to know that just about every person that has posted on this thread has a different view of religion.  I was beginning to think I was all alone.

[Jess]

Bad people use religion as a tool for control over ignorant people, but i don't see that as a flaw with religion. The bad people are bad, without question, but ignorance is the real problem. Being ignorant exposes a person, and if it isn't an evangelical preacher/priest, someone else will happily take advantage.

I would agree with this, well-put. 

[Jess]

Though I must say, the gospel music at the A.M.E. church absolutely rocked, and I do miss that.

 

This reminds me, my love of choral music is incredibly tied up in my churchgoing (so much that I have a hard time sticking with a church that doesn't have a decent choir or music program). I do like gospel, but my truest love is four part a capella chorale harmony, i.e. the backbone of Lutheran church music (excluding pipe organ).

Oh, and the Lutheran church on Westport Rd. over by Cupini's was actually pretty good, but I don't live in that area any longer so i'm sure I won't be going there any time soon. 

Really?  I'm sad to say that I visited there when I first moved to KC, while looking for a Lutheran church home, and found it to be not especially welcoming.  My SO and I stayed for the fellowship time after the service, and people milled around us and nobody spoke.  That's so anti my experience in any Lutheran church.  Maybe they were just off days, though. In any case, we kept looking. 

These days, I don't go to church at all, but I think sometimes i'd like to.  I'd like to be involved in a church that was more into Jesus Christ and his teachings, bearing good fruit in the community, and less into religiosity.  And not shoving God down people's throats.  I could be wrong, but I don't think people are open to the holy spirit when you're bullying them with it.  But, if someone wants to know about my faith, I don't have a problem sharing with them. 

I tend to be the most happy with churches that are actively involved in service to the secular community, as well as the church community.

[phxcat]

Wow- I left this morning on page 1 and now it is on page 5 and running.  I haven't read anything in between, but here is my two cents.  I was raised Methodist, have been unchurched and involved in fundamentalist schools and churches.  I have always questioned everything, and have had a tendency to try to discuss everything (I have always considered Catholics to be Christian, was taught in Sunday School that Revelation was about the fall of Rome, and I see evolution as God's method of creation).  A few observations that I have found to be generally true of the religious right- the rank and file are genuinely good people.  The church leaders may or may not be less so.  Political leaders tend (but not always are) to be panderers.  The farther people get into religion, the more likely they are to actually believe that the Founding Fathers were pious Christians (seeing them as a mirror image of themselves- people who are constantly in prayer).  They also are convinced that they are truly being discriminated against and that there is a conspiracy against them.  They are often so indoctrinated in their beliefs that they are unable to see things from another perspective.  This was very difficult for me when trying to talk about things such as evolution (Me:  Imagine that evolution were true- would... Them:  But Evolution isn't true!  Me:  OK, but just imagine that it were true- Them: But its not true! and so on) or other topics.  They say "hate the sin and love the sinner", and I think this is changing gradually, but when it comes to homosexuality most (although they do not believe it) hate the sinner.

When I think of faith I can't help but think about the scene in the last (before last!) Indiana Jones movie when he was crossing the chasm.  He had to step out in faith, knowing that he would not fall, but still with the idea in his mind that he may just fall to his death!  Faith necessitates agnosticism.  If you know for a fact that God exists, then there is no faith.  If you know that the Bible is true, then you will not follow the teachings of Christ because they are right, or out of love for God, but out of self-interest, and that defeats the purpose of religion.

[ShowMeKC]

Bad people do bad things whether they're religious people or not. Also, don't start an argument. I think we've already quite nicely covered atheistic morality. Suffice to say, your statement has been shown to be false.

Not trying to start an argument...

The statement is actually very true... If there is no God, then everything is permitted. Because then we are just a bunch of animals, the same as all the others out there. And even killing each other would be permitted, as even the animals do that. If there were no God, then the only difference between us and the other animals would be our intelligence.

[brian89gp]

Not trying to start an argument...

The statement is actually very true... If there is no God, then everything is permitted. Because then we are just a bunch of animals, the same as all the others out there. And even killing each other would be permitted, as even the animals do that. If there were no God, then the only difference between us and the other animals would be our intelligence.

Enough intelligence to hopefully choose the 'right' thing and not kill someone.  It has also been proven throughout history that anything can be permitted as long as it is done in the name of God.  It is our intelligence that keeps us from killing each other, religion is just one of the several methods of learning and becomming intelligent.

[mean]

My belief?  "G-d" is the energy that makes this experience possible.  As it holds together molecules and spins the various satellites, it allows this experience of life as I know it.  Everything is a miracle and it never ceases to intrigue me. 

Interesting take. I look at pictures from Hubble and ponder how we're all essentially composed of molecules ejected from ancient dying stars, and it's amazing and overwhelming to think about how intricately intertwined we are with the universe, and how we have become (as far as we know) uniquely capable of pondering and discussing those origins. It truly boggles the mind, and while I don't consider this kind of pondering to be spiritual in nature, I think it offers the same kind of awe and wonder.

So as far as that goes, I can accept the potential existence of what some might call God, as the set of physical laws to which the universe must abide. But that's not very interesting or emotionally compelling, and you probably wouldn't want to pray to thermodynamics.

The statement is actually very true... If there is no God, then everything is permitted. Because then we are just a bunch of animals, the same as all the others out there. And even killing each other would be permitted, as even the animals do that. If there were no God, then the only difference between us and the other animals would be our intelligence.

I respect that you have a belief in God, and I would appreciate it if you would respect my non-belief by not suggesting that I should kill people because I'm an atheist.

To me, as an atheist, it doesn't matter whether there's a God. People (and animals, and the planet in general) deserve respect simply by virtue of their existence. I don't understand the notion that God is required for people to respect life. Life is amazing and beautiful and worth respecting whether a God created it or not. The rights of others are worth respecting whether God is watching from above or not. I don't see what is so hard to understand about that. If you are strongly compelled to go on murderous rampages, and the only reason you don't is because God wouldn't like it, you have bigger problems.

[aknowledgeableperson]

The statement is actually very true... If there is no God, then everything is permitted. Because then we are just a bunch of animals, the same as all the others out there. And even killing each other would be permitted, as even the animals do that. If there were no God, then the only difference between us and the other animals would be our intelligence.

Are there no wars?  Is there not justifiable homicide?  Did not the Jews kill many to take possession of the Holy Land in the Old Testament?  There are primitive societies out there now, and in the past, that do not have a god and yet some things are not permitted because it harms the rest in the society.

And concerning the comment about the Orthodox being the "original" church, well, consider this.  Peter was considered the #1 apostle and he went to establish the religion based on Christ in Rome.  All popes of the Roman Catholic Church can be traced back to Peter in that one followed the other.  But no need to get into a pissing contest because in the end, for many, it doesn't really matter if one's religion is original or not.  Generally the discussion centers around whether one or the other is the true or best way to God.  If having the faith of the original church is important to you and floats your boat then more power to you.

[mean]

I really like the word "Zoroastrianism". I'm not a huge fan of their beliefs, but that is a fine name for a religion.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Sure, or that's what they say they believe. But why the heck would God need to work through doctors? That doesn't make any sense. He's God!

For many they see God through the actions and sayings of others.  One can become a follower of a particular faith because of hearing one preach and believes God is talking through that person.  Or one becomes a member of a religious order when one sees God working through another human, much like many became followers of Mother Theresa after watching her work in India.

Yes, He is God but He comes to us in many different ways.

[ShowMeKC]

I would NEVER suggest that athiests SHOULD kill because they have no God... I'm just saying... If we weren't created by a god, and if there are none. Then WHY should we not act the same as the other animals of the world? They kill each other because of competition and food.

[phxcat]

Are there no wars?  Is there not justifiable homicide?  Did not the Jews kill many to take possession of the Holy Land in the Old Testament?  There are primitive societies out there now, and in the past, that do not have a god and yet some things are not permitted because it harms the rest in the society.

And concerning the comment about the Orthodox being the "original" church, well, consider this.  Peter was considered the #1 apostle and he went to establish the religion based on Christ in Rome.  All popes of the Roman Catholic Church can be traced back to Peter in that one followed the other.  But no need to get into a pissing contest because in the end, for many, it doesn't really matter if one's religion is original or not.  Generally the discussion centers around whether one or the other is the true or best way to God.  If having the faith of the original church is important to you and floats your boat then more power to you.

The part about Peter is not really true, but the point remains- orthodox is so because of the Council of Nicea when Constantine commissioned scholars to decide on orthodoxy.  I doubt that many churches of today really practice in such a way as the original Christians did. 

[mean]

I would NEVER suggest that athiests SHOULD kill because they have no God... I'm just saying... If we weren't created by a god, and if there are none. Then WHY should we not act the same as the other animals of the world? They kill each other because of competition and food.

It's pretty simple: because we have the capacity to understand that killing people isn't nice. We have the ability to reason and think, gee, I sure wouldn't like it if someone killed me for my Snickers, so maybe I shouldn't kill Bob for his.

That aside, your argument is tremendously flawed because people, Christian, Muslim, Jew, atheist, whatever, have killed each other for food, resources, land, heck, for any reason you could think of, since the dawn of history. Humans slaughtering each other is nothing new and doesn't require a God or lack of God.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Then WHY should we not act the same as the other animals of the world? They kill each other because of competition and food.

I don't think that others in the animal world kill another for sneakers.  If you go through history you will find many examples for man torturing and/or killing other men, sometimes in the name of religion or God.  For example see Joan of Arc or the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades or in the present the Islamic Extremists (I hate that term - they are really just plain, old terrorists hiding behind the Islamic faith).