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Kansas City's Best Developers
Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:00 pm
by homewardbound
I'm a native Midwesterner living in the Southeast, but hoping to return sometime in the future... to KC most likely. I work as a Development Manager for a small firm focusing on urban infill and mixed-use projects. Who are KC's best developers measured by the following criteria:
1. Infills or redevelops existing urban sites
2. Site plan oriented towards pedestrians
3. Enhances environments with a mix of uses
I know this type of developer tends to be "boutique" by nature so would appreciate some grassroots advice!
Thanks,
HB
Re: Kansas City's Best Developers
Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:47 pm
by NDTeve
Best:
1) RED Development
2) RH Johnson
Worst:
1) DST
Re: Kansas City's Best Developers
Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:31 pm
by DaveKCMO
the crossroads developers are pretty good at infill and creating a sense of place (in this order):
1. nicholson (barkley/MAC/souperman, 1800 baltimore)
2. accardo (1819 baltimore, the broadway, various other commercial spaces)
3. leavitt (freighthouse area, 39th and main)
Re: Kansas City's Best Developers
Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:43 pm
by voltopt
NDTeve wrote:
Best:
1) RED Development
2) RH Johnson
Worst:
1) DST
I doubt any of these developers would fit into your definition of "boutique."
I've worked with both, and I have had positive experiences with them both, but they are both large retail center developers, with RED focusing on "lifestyle" centers like the Legends at Village West and the Shops at North Village, and RH Johnson with big box developments like Wal Marts & Lowe's, such as Blue Ridge Mall redevelopment and the North Oak Village on Vivion and North Oak, amongst others. They both manage and market smaller, urban properties, but both are predominately large, suburban, auto-centric developers.
Re: Kansas City's Best Developers
Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:23 pm
by dangerboy
RED is *not* urban friendly. They specialize in gigantic lifestyle centers in edge cities, so it's ironic that they are based on the Plaza. It's true that they have a division that manages property in urban locations, but I don't think they do any infill or redevelopment.
Urban Coeur has done some really good infill projects in urban neighborhoods like Union Hill, Longfellow, Columbus Park, and Rosedale (
http://www.urbancoeur.com)
Re: Kansas City's Best Developers
Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:18 pm
by NDTeve
For RED, I was thinking more in terms of 2 and 3.
Re: Kansas City's Best Developers
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:47 am
by kard
NDTeve wrote:
For RED, I was thinking more in terms of 2 and 3.
Do you mean after you park? You have to drive to their centers.
Re: Kansas City's Best Developers
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:37 am
by DaveKCMO
RED is almost universally reviled on this board. i bet if you did a poll, they wouldn't even crack the top 10.
Re: Kansas City's Best Developers
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:23 am
by ComandanteCero
dangerboy wrote:Urban Coeur has done some really good infill projects in urban neighborhoods like Union Hill, Longfellow, Columbus Park, and Rosedale (
http://www.urbancoeur.com)
seconded
Re: Kansas City's Best Developers
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:06 am
by NDTeve
Noticed no-one came to the defense of DST. And no-one here can argue that others (besides Cordish) do a better job than RED and Rod Yates specifically at getting tenants new to KC.
Re: Kansas City's Best Developers
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:24 am
by dangerboy
NDTeve wrote:
Noticed no-one came to the defense of DST. And no-one here can argue that others (besides Cordish) do a better job than RED and Rod Yates specifically at getting tenants new to KC.
What new tenants has RED brought to KC? Seems like all the new-to-market tenants they pull are actually in KCK or OP.
Re: Kansas City's Best Developers
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:45 am
by voltopt
There are different ways to judge a developer. In terms of financial success, I suppose RED is very successful. In terms of built environment, providing quality places that integrate well into the fabric of a city and truly mix uses, and understanding pedestrian access and integration into neighborhoods (not shopping centers as pedestrian islands accessed by autos on arterial roads and interstates), then RED is not very successful. It could be argued that DST is mildly better than RED in getting projects to happen in the city, such as Kirkwood or West downtown, but they tend to work in a singular manner and on commercial office or residential projects.
Re: Kansas City's Best Developers
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:54 am
by kard
NDTeve wrote:
Noticed no-one came to the defense of DST. And no-one here can argue that others (besides Cordish) do a better job than RED and Rod Yates specifically at getting tenants new to KC.
I wasn't trying to rag on your choices.
Why is DST in the "bad" list? I know they have a lot of land bought up and are sitting on it, but they have done a lot of good projects.
Re: Kansas City's Best Developers
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:23 pm
by NDTeve
My problem with DST is how slow they are. Ask any developer and they'll tell you how long their projects take. I have a feeling with Main in my neighborhood that they will drag their feet as they have with Kirkwood. I don't know if they're slow across the board or not but it just seems like they never finish anything right away. Like in Kirkwood, they worked on the townhouses on Wyandotte for months. Took them much longer than the other aspects of the project. Just an opinion. And saying that RED has brought great tenants to KC is the same to me as saying that they brought unique ones to 119 or Village West. My view of KC is broader than the urban core.
Re: Kansas City's Best Developers
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:40 pm
by zonk
DaveKCMO wrote:
the crossroads developers are pretty good at infill and creating a sense of place (in this order):
1. nicholson (barkley/MAC/souperman, 1800 baltimore)
2. accardo (1819 baltimore, the broadway, various other commercial spaces)
3. leavitt (freighthouse area, 39th and main)
LEVITT???? The only thing he's good at is holding onto property and doing nothing....and erecting ugly-ass bill boards in the crossroads.
Re: Kansas City's Best Developers
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:56 pm
by bahua
As I understand it, it's because of DST that the west side of downtown was nice ten years before the rest.
Re: Kansas City's Best Developers
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:20 pm
by homewardbound
Wow - many, many thanks for the responses. I was familiar with RED and found RH Johnson online, though have had trouble finding websites for some of the others - if there are links I am missing, thank you again for the help.
Urban Coeur would definitely constitute "boutique" in my view; is the firm surviving the housing downturn in good shape? My current firm is bigger than Urban Coeur but a bit smaller than RED. We would never do sites the size of RED's without a mix of uses - retail and residential, most recently; office, retail, and residential next. Almost all of our projects involve structured parking, with each site's edge conditions programmed for pedestrian connections (and transit connections where applicable).
NDTeve, is DST's finished product good enough to be worth the wait? Or are they both slow and bad?
HB
Re: Kansas City's Best Developers
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:22 pm
by LenexatoKCMO
homewardbound wrote:
My current firm is bigger than Urban Coeur but a bit smaller than RED. We would never do sites the size of RED's without a mix of uses - retail and residential, most recently; office, retail, and residential next. Almost all of our projects involve structured parking, with each site's edge conditions programmed for pedestrian connections (and transit connections where applicable).
Sounds like you need to bring the firm with you when you move.
Re: Kansas City's Best Developers
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:09 pm
by NDTeve
homewardbound wrote:
Wow - many, many thanks for the responses. I was familiar with RED and found RH Johnson online, though have had trouble finding websites for some of the others - if there are links I am missing, thank you again for the help.
Urban Coeur would definitely constitute "boutique" in my view; is the firm surviving the housing downturn in good shape? My current firm is bigger than Urban Coeur but a bit smaller than RED. We would never do sites the size of RED's without a mix of uses - retail and residential, most recently; office, retail, and residential next. Almost all of our projects involve structured parking, with each site's edge conditions programmed for pedestrian connections (and transit connections where applicable).
NDTeve, is DST's finished product good enough to be worth the wait? Or are they both slow and bad?
HB
They're product is good. I guess I'm biased because their slow pace on Kirkwood has impacted my family..who in turn bitch to me about it. Plus, I think they will definitely drag their feet on the Main St redevelopment. But, one can't argue with their finished product. Its first class and they know Kansas City. Worth the wait...not so sure.
Re: Kansas City's Best Developers
Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:22 pm
by taxi
Urban Coeur is involved in a 22 acre, $100 million mixed-use project in Columbus Park. They hope to begin infrastructure work in the fall. I imagine they will be needing help.