KCRag Forum

Keep it where it is at please. I know that neighborhood sucks, but what additional bars, restaurants, and new hotels on all the parking seas around the complex in addition to some renovations? $800m for a new stadium is not a wise use of money imo.

If taxes are expected to pay for it, I'm out. Keep it out in the boonies and renovate.

WSPanic wrote: ↑Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:01 pm If taxes are expected to pay for it, I'm out. Keep it out in the boonies and renovate.

You can expect that. It's on trend.

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:13 am

WSPanic wrote: ↑Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:01 pm If taxes are expected to pay for it, I'm out. Keep it out in the boonies and renovate.

You can expect that. It's on trend.

Put it in JoCo or the The Legends - let those suckers pony up for a change.

WSPanic wrote: ↑Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:26 am

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:13 am

WSPanic wrote: ↑Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:01 pm If taxes are expected to pay for it, I'm out. Keep it out in the boonies and renovate.

You can expect that. It's on trend.

Put it in JoCo or the The Legends - let those suckers pony up for a change.

I doubt current or future ownership would want that, but if it happens --- so be it!

I'd put it in the West Bottoms close to Hy Vee Arena, with one side of the stadium in Kansas and the other in Missouri (hello bi-state tax). Parking space can be found/already exists and can be purchased or borrowed from Hy Vee Arena with the possibility of a streetcar spur over time. Offices can be placed in Kansas to avoid KCMO taxes, or the Royals have lots of options for taking advantage of being in both states (or some agreement would have to be made between the jurisdictions). The 3rd base line will be the actual state line. Upper level seating will have a downtown skyline view. With the arena, it can be a year-round sports district, and there is a lot of space for development, including some of the stuff planned already between Kansas and Missouri. There is more possibility to use some of the money develop the nearby river and make it more beautiful (rather than a large wall of gravel).

To move 10,000 people in 60 minutes takes 20 trains departing every 60 seconds.

The existing stadiums and parking takes up 220 acres
The entire area between HyVee Arena and 670 (excluding the train tracks) is 110 acres.

If parking isn't added we need transit of course.

150 people per train.
Let's say we want to move 10,000 people in an hour
That's a packed train leaving every 60 seconds

We're not close to the scale of supporting a stadium with only 1/3 of capacity going by train.

This means figuring out parking for 20,000 cars.

And for 20,000 cars there's two ways out. Liberty St to 18th to I-35. This is for all northland bound cars
Wyoming to 670 for SB 35 and everyone going E-W
Cesar Chavez for some

That's much easier if it's put somewhere that we can come close to using the spaces the rest of the time or can be served by multiple transit modes. Paseo West makes much more sense.

bobbyhawks wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:07 pm I'd put it in the West Bottoms close to Hy Vee Arena, with one side of the stadium in Kansas and the other in Missouri (hello bi-state tax). Parking space can be found/already exists and can be purchased or borrowed from Hy Vee Arena with the possibility of a streetcar spur over time. Offices can be placed in Kansas to avoid KCMO taxes, or the Royals have lots of options for taking advantage of being in both states (or some agreement would have to be made between the jurisdictions). The 3rd base line will be the actual state line. Upper level seating will have a downtown skyline view. With the arena, it can be a year-round sports district, and there is a lot of space for development, including some of the stuff planned already between Kansas and Missouri. There is more possibility to use some of the money develop the nearby river and make it more beautiful (rather than a large wall of gravel).

Genius... request $400mil in STAR Bonds and probably get approved. Better investment than the *insert boring no-name hockey/family attraction/arena suburban sprawl attraction here* that they've poured money into.

flyingember wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:38 pm To move 10,000 people in 60 minutes takes 20 trains departing every 60 seconds.

Streetcar service wouldn't be designed with the purpose or capability of moving an entire stadium worth of people from downtown. That wouldn't make sense anyhow. It would connect the district, though, during all of the hours when there aren't games.

flyingember wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:38 pm The existing stadiums and parking takes up 220 acres
The entire area between HyVee Arena and 670 (excluding the train tracks) is 110 acres.

Royals games do not require near the parking that the entire complex offers, and tailgating is not really much of a thing for baseball. There is plenty of space to accommodate tailgaters in the bottoms. Half the space would be totally sufficient, and there are a ton more spillover options with buses, etc., in the bottoms. There are other options, and I'm sure some are easier, but if you start rationalizing moving the stadium to the easiest place, downtown ends up being a dumb option. I can still be convinced the bottoms are a bad idea, and I think there are other good ideas for the downtown area, but I think you have to think big before you think rationally. Otherwise, we'll just end up with a Corporate Woods boring JoCo stadium. If they ever decide to re-route I-35 more to the West of downtown, it would actually sweep right by the potential new location.

The trend is for smaller stadiums too. So like would be in the 30-35k seats size.

Kauffman Stadium is 37k today. That's not much of a decrease.

I predict 10000 people will get there via scooter.

grovester wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:58 pm I predict 10000 people will get there via scooter.

I had to do it.

That's about half an acre of scooters.

flyingember wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:38 pm To move 10,000 people in 60 minutes takes 20 trains departing every 60 seconds.

The existing stadiums and parking takes up 220 acres
The entire area between HyVee Arena and 670 (excluding the train tracks) is 110 acres.

If parking isn't added we need transit of course.

150 people per train.
Let's say we want to move 10,000 people in an hour
That's a packed train leaving every 60 seconds

We're not close to the scale of supporting a stadium with only 1/3 of capacity going by train.

This means figuring out parking for 20,000 cars.

And for 20,000 cars there's two ways out. Liberty St to 18th to I-35. This is for all northland bound cars
Wyoming to 670 for SB 35 and everyone going E-W
Cesar Chavez for some

That's much easier if it's put somewhere that we can come close to using the spaces the rest of the time or can be served by multiple transit modes. Paseo West makes much more sense.

Agreed except for the last sentence.
Not many people here remember Kemper Arena operating in its heyday. With a crowd of 16,000 it would take much more than one hour to get the cars out of the parking lots. Yes, one can add some mass transit to provide some relief put unless is is on dedicated ROW it would be stuck in traffic much like the cars would. West Bottoms makes no sense for a stadium unless there is a very big infrastructure investment for transportation. Would that make for a wise use of transportation investment dollars?

Ah, er, half the people could walk to a downtown stadium. simple entertainment value for day games and after work. visit other cities with urban stadiums, I mean integrated, urban stadiums, not St Louis. They walk, sure cars and busses too. Denver doesnt even have light rail hit the stadium but people will walk 6 blocks to that station and disperse. All i hear is "cant do" and small thinking. get it done KC or languish as show me followers....oh, and dont forget. half the people will arrive early and eat/drink and then eat/drink after the games. different paradigm from a toadstool on concrete jungle.

Most of these "integrated urban stadiums" were built in what were suburbs at the time of construction. They were not imposed onto the urban fabric. Instead the urban fabric grew up around them. Big difference.





I still just don't understand what the appeal is to downtown stadiums. Sure, bars and stuff will get some extra cash for a few nights of the year, and there's the purely visceral image of seeing the skyline from the stadium, but is that worth forming a vast single-use superblock in the urban center of the city and building all the garages and junk that would come with it? Downtown has too many garages and is mutilated enough already.

Even if a stadium could somehow drive enough development to make the millions upon millions spent on the endeavor worthwhile, I still don't think it would be a good idea. I would prefer the revitalization of areas downtown be a gradual thing that takes full use of the urban site and respects it, even if it takes much longer. That's opposed to plopping a stadium into the middle of things, which, even in the very best scenario, effectively dooms the site to be a stadium for eternity. Just look at all the stadiums that have just been rebuilt on the same site over and over.

We should be focusing on creating a downtown strong enough that it doesn't need a stadium to attract people.

^i see pros and cons but come on, 81 home games per season is more than just a 'few nights of the year'

ToDactivist wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:23 pm Ah, er, half the people could walk to a downtown stadium. simple entertainment value for day games and after work. visit other cities with urban stadiums, I mean integrated, urban stadiums, not St Louis. They walk, sure cars and busses too. Denver doesnt even have light rail hit the stadium but people will walk 6 blocks to that station and disperse. All i hear is "cant do" and small thinking. get it done KC or languish as show me followers....oh, and dont forget. half the people will arrive early and eat/drink and then eat/drink after the games. different paradigm from a toadstool on concrete jungle.

20 thousand people live in downtown KC, maybe 10% of those would go to a baseball game on a given night. So there are 2000 people. the 18-30 thousand would have to make their way into the city. No thanks.

shinatoo wrote: ↑Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:14 am 20 thousand people live in downtown KC, maybe 10% of those would go to a baseball game on a given night. So there are 2000 people. the 18-30 thousand would have to make their way into the city. No thanks.

You're overlooking downtown's daytime workforce population who would likely stick around downtown if catching a game after work, in addition to the resident and workforce population in the entire urban core that will be served by the streetcar's Main Street extension.

Critical_Mass wrote: ↑Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:15 am ^i see pros and cons but come on, 81 home games per season is more than just a 'few nights of the year'

That's less than a quarter of the year. I was obviously exaggerating, but the point still stands that the facility will not be in use for the vast majority of its existence, while also occupying an enormous amount of space that'd be better served by more conventional development