downtown condo market (from P&L Condo thread)

[jlbomega]

While the stadiums are not downtown, there are plenty of Royals Express stops downtown.  You can drink at the P&L then catch the bus for $5 (then get $5 off your ticket if you buy at the game).  I know it is not the same, but it isn't horrible.

[rxlexi]

actually, in regards to the Royals Express buses, I've been thinking that it would be great if the Royals and/or Chiefs would pony up enough cash to design and build an attention grabbing, large bus stop for TSC bound buses in or near the P&L.  You know, some team colors and graphics, fanciful lighting, the whole nine-yards to not only encourage ridership to the TSC but more importantly make it seem much more connected to DT without really doing anything major (i.e. a train line out there etc.). 
  I know this is straying from the topic at hand, but to reign things in again, moves like this would increase the feeling of nearby activities and living in the center of action in the metro area, I would think, and as we all know, increased connectivity is one of KC's largest issues at hand.  Better connections, or at least the perception of better connections will lead to the increased residential density we all want to see.

[mean]

It sure makes people ask, "What am I getting by moving DT, that I can't get by moving to the Plaza or maintaining my suburban home?"

At this point, downtown does not offer a great deal of things over the plaza, but it depends on what you're looking for. If you want to walk to really nice art galleries, or if you want local flavor restaurants and several good beer bars in walking (stumbling?) distance, downtown is a good bet. If you want to walk to an open air produce market, complete with adjacent ethnic grocers, downtown is going to offer that. You can walk to live local music, and soon you will also be able to walk to the movies, bowling, and other entertainment.

Personally, I think the plaza is a fine place to visit but I would much rather live downtown. There seems to be more stuff I'm interested in downtown right now--without Sprint Center, P&L, or the PAC--than the plaza.

[chrizow]

frankly, i think part of downtown's appeal is that it ISNT the plaza.

[chingon]

For a while...

[loftguy]

For a while...

Hmmm...Interesting percept.  Got to keep the gritty edges in place, don't we?

[chrizow]

aside from the P+L District itself, i don't see downtown ever becoming like the Plaza.

[Gretz]

aside from the P+L District itself, i don't see downtown ever becoming like the Plaza.

  I sure hope not.  If the Cashew becomes the new Grand Falloon and Willie's begins to resemble COMO's Willie's I'll have to move to midtown.  I got more than my fill of those packed but-to-nut, 20 min to get a drink, striped shirts and blond hair places in college.  I think the places around the perifery of the P&L district will maintain their eclectic flavor though I have my doubts about the crowd the district itself will attract.

[ThaMexican]

Guys

I found this information online but I can not confirm when it was posted, the link to get there is http://www.welcomehomegirl.com/UpcomingWorkshops, but anyway here is the info

During Valentine's Week, we crunched the sales figures of the top selling downtown, midtown and Plaza condominiums. Here's the results.

Of KC condos priced beneath $250,000, the top selling condo winner by a landslide was The Manhattan (selling 175 units of its 220 unit building in just 3 months). The popular condo runner ups were Upjohn Blount Condo Properties (43 sales), The Met (41 sales), Sante Fe Place, (35 sales), Riverbend (32 sales), 700 Broadway (29 sales), Coffee Lofts (21 sales), Bella Condominiums (19 sales),The View (19 sales).523 Grand (17 sales). The Atriums (12 sales), and Normandy Square (10 sales).

Note, I bundled all Upjohn Blount Properties to show how the condo king is holding his own against the mega tower projects. The Upjohn Blount properties that were bundled included Carabella, Ingenook, Plaza Hills, Gasgony, Walnut Corners, The Gallery, Park Castle, Ventura and Ponce De Leon.

Of KC condos priced more than $250,000, the top selling condo winner by a landslide was Wallstreet Towers (105 sales in last 12 months ranging in price from $180,000 to $915,000. Next in popularity was The View (14 sales), Freighthouse (12 sales), Brideworks Lofts (11 sales), Crestwood (7 sales), and Greenlease Cadillac with 6 sales.

[jim040558]

Spin is a wonderful thing. Since the Manhattan product has just flown off the shelves, obviously the writer wanted to position the product that she sells as the "best of the rest," and she aggregates several properties. The problem is, she didn't do that with Embassy Properties/Master Realty (Soho, Atriums, Coffee, 700 Broadway, Foutains, etc) which has sold at least 70 units during the same period.

Obviously, Manhattan touched on a need for reasonably priced, relatively high quality finishes. As has been discussed on this board, there are a lot more people who want to buy condos in the 80k-200k market than in the upper price points. I sincerely hope that developers are taking notice, and respond by bringing more product to that price point that is good quality with good amenities. Some of the developments that I have looked at appear to be the condo equivalent of rape and pillage (high prices, cheaper "industrial" finish, few amenities). They of course are trying to see if this kind of thing will fly. In my opinion, we are not seeing a slowdown in condo demand, it's just that stupid money has been exhausted, and people want value for their hard earned dollar. Developers will respond if the market tells them to, and I believe this is happening now.

[CityLiving]

Obviously, Manhattan touched on a need for reasonably priced, relatively high quality finishes. As has been discussed on this board, there are a lot more people who want to buy condos in the 80k-200k market than in the upper price points. I sincerely hope that developers are taking notice, and respond by bringing more product to that price point that is good quality with good amenities. Some of the developments that I have looked at appear to be the condo equivalent of rape and pillage (high prices, cheaper "industrial" finish, few amenities). They of course are trying to see if this kind of thing will fly. In my opinion, we are not seeing a slowdown in condo demand, it's just that stupid money has been exhausted, and people want value for their hard earned dollar. Developers will respond if the market tells them to, and I believe this is happening now.

Jim, there are no cities of Kansas City's size that can compare with what you get for the money in a downtown condo.  While the market is currently slow and prices are even falling some, you simply cannot find the same value in other cities.  It sounds like you need to reset your expectations and understand that people are not "stupid" and developers are not "rapist".  Welcome to urban reality!  If you can find a downtown market similar to Kansas City's size with lower real estate prices maybe you could inform us.

[jim040558]

"Jim, there are no cities of Kansas City's size that can compare with what you get for the money in a downtown condo."

With all due respect, you are wrong. You can't characterize an entire market as being one thing or another. There are SOME good value condos, while others are done poorly, and still others are just overpriced. Pricing for condos will always compete with overall cost of housing in the area, and KC has been consistently ranked near or at the top of the index for most affordable housing for major cities, so condo pricing should have some correlation to that. 

"It sounds like you need to reset your expectations and understand that people are not "stupid" and developers are not "rapist"."

Same things as above. So no one in Kansas City has ever taken advantage of anyone, or done something stupid in real estate or the condo market? C'mon, I know you must be better than that. I didn't say everyone, just some.

There are examples in this community of good product, and examples of overpriced product, poor workmanship, and even bait and switch. There are dishonest people in EVERY industry, including and especially real estate.

I think that you, me and anyone else who cares should be discriminating consumers, not speculators on either side trying to make a quick buck.

By the way, I don't make my living in this industry. DO YOU?

[CityLiving]

At any price level KC is still a better value than any other market its size.  You can probably pick out a property or two where comparative values within Kansas City may be out of alignment. 

I do not make my living in the real estate industry, however buying at these levels a person could do very well.  I’m on the forum to enjoy downtown living and to get the most out of it.

[jim040558]

"At any price level KC is still a better value than any other market its size.  You can probably pick out a property or two where comparative values within Kansas City may be out of alignment."

A property or two? I am from Missouri, so you will have to show me that this is actually true, since it flies in the face of facts. As an example, I did a search on real estate.com for just one city, St. Louis, that is our size, and I found over 45 condo properties BELOW $100,000, and 22 of THOSE were below $80,000. And that's just the multilist, which doesn't include new condos (like the Manhattan here) that aren't listed on multilist yet. That's just one city that I checked.

"I do not make my living in the real estate industry, however buying at these levels a person could do very well." 

Or get killed. Any property is a great deal at the right price or a horrible deal at the wrong price. That is the kind of nonsense that will only cause people to think that making money on condos is a no brainer. Hmmm. You still sound suspicously like someone who has a vested interest in saying these things.

I don't have the time to drag this on much farther, but there is also real risk of losing money in this condo market for a variety of reasons.

"I’m on the forum to enjoy downtown living and to get the most out of it."

Despite what you may see as my naysaying, I am a huge supporter of Kansas City, and downtown and condos in particular, and I agree with you on the above statement. I just advise people not to ride their bicycles with their heads down.

[CityLiving]

No need to continue the argument, lets let the market speak for us and see where we are in future years.  Losing money is always a possibility. 

[chrizow]

i read an article a while back that said something like, on average, KC condos and lofts are like 30% more expensive than ones in STL.  wtf?

[kclofter]

i read an article a while back that said something like, on average, KC condos and lofts are like 30% more expensive than ones in STL.  wtf?

I can't quote an article, but I can speak from my experience.  Two years ago, when we were still shopping for a loft/condo, I actually started looking beyond the KC market toward STL (I travel for work so it doesn't matter where in MO trhat I live).  There was a noticable difference in price as you mentioned, at least in the upper end, say >$450k.

[chingon]

If I'm not mistaken, STL has a lower % of property ownership and a higher % of renters.  Perhaps some of the $ difference is related to ownership culture.  I also think homes are much cheaper in STL.  When we were looking real estate in general was noticeabley cheaper.  STL's REPUTATION of depopulation history is probably also a factor in urban core housing prices.

[CityLiving]

Interesting, what are the primary zip codes of downtown STL?  When I look up 63101, 63103, 63104, and 63105 on the realestate.com source provided above, I found that there were 7 condos priced under 100K and 119 condos priced over 400K.

In KC I would consider 64105, 64106 and 64108 as the downtown zip codes.  Any thoughts on any other zip code to include?

[Downtowner]

It's about demand in St Louis....and no city has lost more residents (except maybe Detroit) than St Louis. Their downtown is coming back but they have a lot on the market. Given the choices of midwest cities, who wants to live there? The city that was once 850,000 has dwindled down to 330,000 since 1950.