KCRag Forum

Posted: **Sun Oct 23, 2022 9:58 pm**

Straight lines are the best bet from what I’ve gathered. I’m still pro a 31st st line, down the hill and onto SW Blvd. straight lines speed up service, and this route would easily tie into a possible SW Blvd route in the medium to long term future. If we’re going for a true urban SC network, then straight line corridors should be the goal.

Posted: **Sun Oct 23, 2022 10:02 pm**

The city is terrified of center-running. It doesn't help that businesses and the public can't imagine it being better than what we have downtown.

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:17 am**

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 10:02 pm The city is terrified of center-running. It doesn't help that businesses and the public can't imagine it being better than what we have downtown.

It's not the city. The neighborhoods didn't want it and they're paying for it. If the city or "powers-that-be" wanted center-running they should have come up with a funding mechanism that cast a broader net and sold it to the further ring suburbs (Brookside/Waldo/NKC) that center-running would get them to their jobs faster.

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:32 am**

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 12:17 am
DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 10:02 pm The city is terrified of center-running. It doesn't help that businesses and the public can't imagine it being better than what we have downtown.
It's not the city. The neighborhoods didn't want it and they're paying for it. If the city or "powers-that-be" wanted center-running they should have come up with a funding mechanism that cast a broader net and sold it to the further ring suburbs (Brookside/Waldo/NKC) that center-running would get them to their jobs faster.

I think the fears against center-running are a bit unfounded.

Complaint 1: no left turns *****Other cities manage to have center running dedicated AND left turns*****
Complaint 2: removal of parking *****Phase 1 removes more spaces each year*******

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:47 am**

normalthings wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:32 am I think the fears against center-running are a bit unfounded.

Complaint 1: no left turns *****Other cities manage to have center running dedicated AND left turns*****
Complaint 2: removal of parking *****Phase 1 removes more spaces each year*******

I’d agree with this to a point. I think it’s also people trying to turn the streetcar into something it’s not. It’s a local commuter line. It’s not light rail or the backbone of a citywide system. It should never be the basis for someone from Lees Summit or Liberty to get to work.

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:51 am**

After seeing the center running dedicated ROW BRT in Cleveland, I am convinced that is the way to go.

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:53 am**

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:47 am
normalthings wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:32 am I think the fears against center-running are a bit unfounded.

Complaint 1: no left turns *****Other cities manage to have center running dedicated AND left turns*****
Complaint 2: removal of parking *****Phase 1 removes more spaces each year*******
I’d agree with this to a point. I think it’s also people trying to turn the streetcar into something it’s not. It’s a local commuter line. It’s not light rail or the backbone of a citywide system. It should never be the basis for someone from Lees Summit or Liberty to get to work.

I don’t really think curb running is good for an urban core system either

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:09 pm**

alejandro46 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 9:38 pm
FlippantCitizen wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 1:31 pm Based on everything I've heard... center running just isn't going to happen.
In the meeting they didn’t mention anything about this. This study is merely to determine the best route. They’re still evaluating busses/Brt even.

I asked questions of multiple people involved in the project at the meetings. I pushed quite hard on whether a more robust, dedicated ROW, line was even a remote possibility for the study. The answers were diplomatic but my take away was no.

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:56 pm**

FlippantCitizen wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:09 pm
alejandro46 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 9:38 pm
FlippantCitizen wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 1:31 pm Based on everything I've heard... center running just isn't going to happen.
In the meeting they didn’t mention anything about this. This study is merely to determine the best route. They’re still evaluating busses/Brt even.
I asked questions of multiple people involved in the project at the meetings. I pushed quite hard on whether a more robust, dedicated ROW, line was even a remote possibility for the study. The answers were diplomatic but my take away was no.

This project is the same length as LRT lines in other cities. Need to start treating these corridors as what they are.

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:24 pm**

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:47 am
normalthings wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:32 am I think the fears against center-running are a bit unfounded.

Complaint 1: no left turns *****Other cities manage to have center running dedicated AND left turns*****
Complaint 2: removal of parking *****Phase 1 removes more spaces each year*******
I’d agree with this to a point. I think it’s also people trying to turn the streetcar into something it’s not. It’s a local commuter line. It’s not light rail or the backbone of a citywide system. It should never be the basis for someone from Lees Summit or Liberty to get to work.

With that kind of attitude it is. The Phoenix Metro system isn't that different from our Streetcars. We just need to build them better.

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:11 pm**

normalthings wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:56 pm This project is the same length as LRT lines in other cities. Need to start treating these corridors as what they are.

I agree. Trust me all my comments online and during the meeting reflected that. But I think it's wishcasting to think this project is going to result in a center running, dedicated lane, fixed rail project. I really would love to be wrong.

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:23 pm**

Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 9:58 pm Straight lines are the best bet from what I’ve gathered. I’m still pro a 31st st line, down the hill and onto SW Blvd. straight lines speed up service, and this route would easily tie into a possible SW Blvd route in the medium to long term future. If we’re going for a true urban SC network, then straight line corridors should be the goal.

If we were building out an 18th/SW BLVD line simultaneously then I agree that would make some amount of sense. There's definitely development and densification potential along the Boulevard. Notably also a lot of empty lots, whole empty blocks even, in Westside South right along 31st. But as it stands there would be very, very few residents serviced by that route including once it turned south on Rainbow. While I think there are advantages to going piecemeal, such as directing density and development to the most important corridors and letting that catch up before moving on... the disadvantages are that certain things that would make sense as part of a complete system don't make sense on their own, especially in early phases like this.

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:47 pm**

FlippantCitizen wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:11 pm
normalthings wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:56 pm This project is the same length as LRT lines in other cities. Need to start treating these corridors as what they are.
I agree. Trust me all my comments online and during the meeting reflected that. But I think it's wishcasting to think this project is going to result in a center running, dedicated lane, fixed rail project. I really would love to be wrong.

If it goes rail and not center running, we shouldn’t build rail imho

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:57 pm**

normalthings wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:47 pm
FlippantCitizen wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:11 pm
normalthings wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:56 pm This project is the same length as LRT lines in other cities. Need to start treating these corridors as what they are.
I agree. Trust me all my comments online and during the meeting reflected that. But I think it's wishcasting to think this project is going to result in a center running, dedicated lane, fixed rail project. I really would love to be wrong.
If it goes rail and not center running, we shouldn’t build rail imho

Fair. I'd be happy with true BRT with dedicated lanes, <10 minute headways. Here's to hoping for that or a robust center running fixed rail line in a dedicated lane. I think we are mostly in agreement. It would be a critical mistake to build a curb running tram all the way to TSC. A laughable mistake actually.

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:07 pm**

alejandro46 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:24 pm
With that kind of attitude it is. The Phoenix Metro system isn't that different from our Streetcars. We just need to build them better.

I'd never want that on Main St.

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:18 pm**

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:07 pm
alejandro46 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:24 pm
With that kind of attitude it is. The Phoenix Metro system isn't that different from our Streetcars. We just need to build them better.
I'd never want that on Main St.

BFA, if you prefer Main as a local route what alternative do you propose for a spine of a more regional or commuter oriented system? Or do you think such a system can/should never exist in KC?

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:25 pm**

FlippantCitizen wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:18 pm BFA, if you prefer Main as a local route what alternative do you propose for a spine of a more regional or commuter oriented system? Or do you think such a system can/should never exist in KC?

We're way too sparcely populated in this city to really have a successful LRT system. I'm not convinced that it would be worth the time or effort or that it wouldn't make the (non)density issue that we have in this metro even worse. Would LRT cause more people to want to live in the city? I don't think so. An LRT line to the new Arrowhead only, makes absolutely zero sense. In actuality, I think we should focus on the core of the city making for the ability to be car-optional a reality. More streetcar, bike lanes, walkability. And, I know many people will hate this, I think we should work to make the commute to the suburbs as long as possible. Road diets, highway removal, etc. The only thing that will bring more people back to the city as residents is bringing jobs back, reducing crime and providing viable education and making it as painful as possible to live in a far-flung suburb. Every 10 minutes you add to a commute increases the possibility of someone choosing to move closer. I know there's some people on this board who push for LRT and BRT purely because they live in a suburb but want to get DT quickly for all the benefits it provides. That's a problem that we shouldn't exacerbate.

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:52 pm**

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:25 pm
FlippantCitizen wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:18 pm BFA, if you prefer Main as a local route what alternative do you propose for a spine of a more regional or commuter oriented system? Or do you think such a system can/should never exist in KC?
We're way too sparcely populated in this city to really have a successful LRT system. I'm not convinced that it would be worth the time or effort or that it wouldn't make the (non)density issue that we have in this metro even worse. Would LRT cause more people to want to live in the city? I don't think so. An LRT line to the new Arrowhead only, makes absolutely zero sense. In actuality, I think we should focus on the core of the city making for the ability to be car-optional a reality. More streetcar, bike lanes, walkability. And, I know many people will hate this, I think we should work to make the commute to the suburbs as long as possible. Road diets, highway removal, etc. The only thing that will bring more people back to the city as residents is bringing jobs back, reducing crime and providing viable education and making it as painful as possible to live in a far-flung suburb. Every 10 minutes you add to a commute increases the possibility of someone choosing to move closer. I know there's some people on this board who push for LRT and BRT purely because they live in a suburb but want to get DT quickly for all the benefits it provides. That's a problem that we shouldn't exacerbate.

I can sympathize with that perspective, Though I differ in thinking a more robust line to TSC could be useful in that it could be a bridgehead to a JaxCo line, and if JaxCo gets involved in funding then more is possible. Likewise with a roubust North/South spine given KC is 30+ miles long on that axis and we have north of the river to think about, who I don't have to remind you elect council members. Increasing friction to car commuting and making it as attractive as possible to live in the core by focusing on local trams as a first step and bike infrastructure is good. But given politics and the funding, we probably have to give suburban areas something, particularly the Missouri side. If JoCo wants anything they can and should pay for it. We don't need commuter rail to 159th Street, but something to tie the Northland to 75th street, DT KCK to as far as Raytown and Independence? I think those are also worthwhile priorities to pursue in conjunction with local trams in urban KC

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:35 pm**

There are a number of less dense and useful LRT lines going forward. If we do streetcar, built the best version of it

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:59 pm**

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:25 pm We're way too sparcely populated in this city to really have a successful LRT system. I'm not convinced that it would be worth the time or effort or that it wouldn't make the (non)density issue that we have in this metro even worse.

I just will say this: At all costs keep LRT the fuck out of JoCo

The *one* major thing KCMO has going for it over JoCo right now is that it has the rail network. And it's working. People wanna move to be by it. Businesses too. It will be the one major advantage KCMO has over JoCo that it can use to rebuild its urban core. You can take quick, easy free transport in the city vs. being stuck driving in the burbs. It's enticing and a crucial tool to help bring the city back. If you give JoCo the trains too, then shit, it's over. They can then sell themselves as "richer, cleaner, better schools, better jobs, oh and now we can offer you full transit" -- and the shot to attract talent over JoCo is closed.

Keep the trains in Missouri. The train network is the best advantage we can press over JoCo to rebuild the core that they can't do anything about. Play their nimby-ism against themselves.

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