Downtown Baseball Stadium

[moderne]

Isn't MODOT planning to demolish and not replace the Locust overpass?

[dnweava]

It works fine for commuting and real life traffic. google maps can't tell us what we need to know about putting in 35k people into and out of the stadium by using the "it doesn't look busy in the morning" argument.

For sure this would be a discussion for EV site too. There we wouldn't be eliminating a major street like Oak though. Not only that but it's impacts on other surrounds is greater at this site.

If Downtown KC's road system is barely impacted by 500k-800k going downtown and most of them leaving pretty close to the same time, then why in the world would 35k do anything? I seriously watched downtown traffic during most of the parade event, I even pulled up the cameras from KC Scout. Almost no traffic. And remember, the Broadway Bridge is closed in one direction (more proof that it did not need to become another freeway).

Downtown KC can easily handle a stadium. The main thing will be to force people to not uses the closest exits to the stadium that's all. They need to close many of the tiny exits on the downtown loop and push people to the larger capacity exits and streets like Paseo.

I was on Oak 2-3 hours after the win Sunday night. Traffic was straight up GRIDLOCKED everywhere within the loop , this is extremely common after big events downtown, Grand, Main, Oak, etc all gridlock up on a regular basis. Just because those streets don't have any traffic at 1pm on a Tuesday doesn't mean those streets aren't vital. Closing Oak is seriously fucking stupid. Hey, lets divert more traffic ONTO main so the streetcar straight up can't move after any big event ever again.

This is literally Oak, they literally moved less than 1 block in 10 minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls955GY-7ck


Oak needs to stay open, main needs to go car free. I also did a little math, the streetcar holds 150 (double them up, and double the platform lengths) to get a capacity of 300 per train. With 3 lines (existing Main St/ Plaza line, a line that goes over to KS to pick up JOCO park and riders, and a line that crosses the river to pick up northland Park and riders), you can get a streetcar capacity of almost 8,000 per hour if you run each line every 7-8 minutes, which means a streetcar is leaving the stations every 90 seconds to 2 minutes. That's essentially a 1/3rd of the crowd of what you expect to see at most Royals games (on par with the percentage of people who take light rail to sports games in Minneapolis for example). With a few thousand walking from downtown (hotels or downtown residents) and with a robust streetcar/light rail expansion you only need to really need to move 10,000 into downtown for a game, as most people carpool to sporting events at around 3 people per car, you only need to park 3-4k cars. That's actually not that bad. Hopefully a downtown stadium can help speed up the expansion of the streetcar/light rail network.

[KCPowercat]

Oak can be closed, but Locust would need to be beefed up and turned back into a two way street inside the loop and the bridge over 670 straitened out. The thing about Oak is it's generally a wider street so better for having bike lanes etc. One positive about Locust is it's basically a straight shot to the HoA Bridge. However, it doesn't cross the RR canyon to the south like Oak does.

I do think it would be ideal to keep Oak open from a more urban walkability standpoint though at least for pedestrians and cyclists.

We need to plan this in a way that HOA bridge isn't relied on. That coming down is still in the cards.

Oak would be closed during gamedays even if it stays open, get that, but need to make it doable to keep it open non-game days (which is still 2/3rds of the year). it's more to help when we need to close Grand for other purposes. We'd still be able to use Oak during gamedays for n/s flow.

[GRID]

HOA Bridge will still be there even if they remove or modify the interchange with the north loop. So not following you there. Need to do some traffic studies on the impact of closing any of the streets though.

[KCPowercat]

Really want to see some sort of protection and/or support for existing businesses (not building owners) within a 1/4 mile of the border. i don't know what that looks like or how you do it, but that's the impact I'm worried about.

Now for some positives I could envision on the surrounds, I've always thought the stretch of McGee south of 17th is a perfect pedestrian only (or focused) area of storefronts that was underused. This would spur that idea.

[KCPowercat]

HOA Bridge will still be there even if they remove or modify the interchange with the north loop. So not following you there. Need to do some traffic studies on the impact of closing any of the streets though.

Sorry I meant south of HOA through River Market. that may not end up being a highway style all the way through. Not that it couldn't still be used for this purpose for gamedays I guess.

[GRID]

It works fine for commuting and real life traffic. google maps can't tell us what we need to know about putting in 35k people into and out of the stadium by using the "it doesn't look busy in the morning" argument.

For sure this would be a discussion for EV site too. There we wouldn't be eliminating a major street like Oak though. Not only that but it's impacts on other surrounds is greater at this site.

If Downtown KC's road system is barely impacted by 500k-800k going downtown and most of them leaving pretty close to the same time, then why in the world would 35k do anything? I seriously watched downtown traffic during most of the parade event, I even pulled up the cameras from KC Scout. Almost no traffic. And remember, the Broadway Bridge is closed in one direction (more proof that it did not need to become another freeway).

Downtown KC can easily handle a stadium. The main thing will be to force people to not uses the closest exits to the stadium that's all. They need to close many of the tiny exits on the downtown loop and push people to the larger capacity exits and streets like Paseo.

I was on Oak 2-3 hours after the win Sunday night. Traffic was straight up GRIDLOCKED everywhere within the loop , this is extremely common after big events downtown, Grand, Main, Oak, etc all gridlock up on a regular basis. Just because those streets don't have any traffic at 1pm on a Tuesday doesn't mean those streets aren't vital. Closing Oak is seriously fucking stupid. Hey, lets divert more traffic ONTO main so the streetcar straight up can't move after any big event ever again.

This is literally Oak, they literally moved less than 1 block in 10 minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls955GY-7ck


Oak needs to stay open, main needs to go car free. I also did a little math, the streetcar holds 150 (double them up, and double the platform lengths) to get a capacity of 300 per train. With 3 lines (existing Main St/ Plaza line, a line that goes over to KS to pick up JOCO park and riders, and a line that crosses the river to pick up northland Park and riders), you can get a streetcar capacity of almost 8,000 per hour if you run each line every 7-8 minutes, which means a streetcar is leaving the stations every 90 seconds to 2 minutes. That's essentially a 1/3rd of the crowd of what you expect to see at most Royals games (on par with the percentage of people who take light rail to sports games in Minneapolis for example). With a few thousand walking from downtown (hotels or downtown residents) and with a robust streetcar/light rail expansion you only need to really need to move 10,000 into downtown for a game, as most people carpool to sporting events at around 3 people per car, you only need to park 3-4k cars. That's actually not that bad. Hopefully a downtown stadium can help speed up the expansion of the streetcar/light rail network.

You do realize that northbound Oak is not a through northbound street in the loop right? It backs up during major events in that area because everybody is trying to use it to get left into the P&L district area and with Grand closed etc, it screws Oak in that area, if people would just turn right, it would empty out in minutes.

Totally agree with you on the amount of cars that need to park for Royals games. I keep posting that on social media to people that say the sports complex parks 26,000 cars. The Royals never even use 10,000 of those spaces, even for a sold out game. A downtown stadium would use less and the parking would be far more distributed across downtown and along the streetcar line. I personally think a royals game would have less impact on downtown streets than a typical sold out event at T-Mobile.

[Belvidere]

It’s not that some of us aren’t giving consideration to small businesses and artists but this particular area isn’t representative of the entire greater community. We can acknowledge the negative consequences of this stadium while also recognizing that overall, it’s best for downtown.

You mention we need employers and residents a lot more than we do entertainment. Well what’s currently in this part of EC certainly isn’t bringing us any of that. The stadium will accomplish both of those things you agree we need.

I know certain types of people with certain predetermined outlooks on society and capitalism think this is purely about a money grab for rich people but I find that to be ridiculous. No denying some wealthy people could personally benefit but it’s not without investing their own resources. Whether you like it or not, we need these “rich” peoples money to build the things we need. The housing, the jobs and the entertainment. We need big shiny things like a baseball stadium to draw attention and actually help create the demand for better public transit.

So while some people on here are trying to frame my takes and others as not caring about certain things, specifically small business owners, that’s just not true. I think in the long run this plan will be much better for the majority of them even if it hurts a few in the immediate short term.

They're not representative of the greater community? What does that mean, exactly?

You're ignoring history. Everyone said, years ago, putting highways into downtown neighborhoods was for the greater good. Well, that sucked. My neighborhood still has empty lots from Model Cities. They said consolidating public housing was for the greater good and now we're still digging ourselves out, because then HUD said oops, consolidating poverty is a bad thing.

Trickle down economics doesn't work. I've spent the last 20 years watching the riverfront transform, the River Market, and Crossroads, while my community remains on life support in no small part due to delayed development that is driven by speculation. Paseo Gateway has helped; if they would let that continue, we may still see benefits.

It's taken us years to get development restarted and that was a volunteer effort and a lot of screaming. It didn't just happen. And the speculation is actually getting worse. I seen people die of greed rather than activate a property. I can give you specific examples. There are more vacant properties on my street than ever. My neighborhood is being held hostage by rich investors who can sit on a property forever. We look like we are blighted by people who can't afford to fix their property and that's a factor, but I have mapped this out and I can assure you it's rich people who are hurting us. We are line on a spreadsheet to them. We are not a community. They live in places like Leawood and Weatherby Lake. We are the ones who have to keep their places from being broken into by squatters. Our property taxes are subsidizing their investment because they are paying far less than we are.

So we get screwed either way. There are people in my neighborhood right now who are at risk of being displaced. We are desperately trying to figure out how to do multiple things at the same time. Do I want development? Hell, yes. I'm tired of staring at empty spaces and not having anything to do. We don't have enough neighbors. We need more people to support a small business or even a daycare, which we desperately need. I also understand how long an investor is willing to hold a property vacant to get that kind of money they expect. Most investors lie to us about what they're going to do, 90 percent of the time. There's a building on my block right now where this lady put minimal investment into it. She bought it for less than $800,000 and listed it for just under $2 million. It will sit there forever because it's not worth that and there's no way to put enough apartments into it to make it work.

There is no economic study backing up what you're saying about the stadium. Have we had a traffic review? An environmental review? All those things we are supposed to do before major development? Has the South Loop cap been approved by MoDot? Real public engagement?

The worst thing you can do as a developer is to go into a community and say you know what is best for them. First of all, they hate your guts. Secondly, you might not be right.

I'm not sure what neighborhood you live in and I can't speak to what I don't know. It seems like you're dealing with property owners who are unwilling to invest and build, that's not what we've experienced for the most part in the central entertainment area of downtown.

My comment about this area where the stadium is planned to go not representing the greater neighborhood - There are some awesome, dense and vibrant areas of Crossroads, but this isn't one of them. That's not meant to be mean, it's just reality and can be proven by breaking down the percentage of vacant buildings, surface parking lots vs active tenants. Take out the ones who want to sell and you're left with literally 3 or 4 tenants who at this point, are pissed and opposed. I can't blame them a bit.

As for economic studies, traffic reviews, environmental reviews etc, those are all part of the process that have either been done or will be done. You don't dump a billion dollars into something that people can't get to. You don't dump millions of tax payer funding into a project that will hurt the average taxpayer. Our elected officials, both local and state think this is the best plan. It's not just the rich guys.

We don't live in the same city. Do you have any idea how much volunteering we have to do to make sure the city does not pass ordinances that degrade our quality of life? I hate talking to politicians. They hate this much advocacy. I don't have the luxury of ignoring it. They pick winners and losers all the time and we end up being losers unless we are highly involved, and even then, it doesn't always work. We are lucky because we have great City staff.

What world do you live in where you think people have your best interests at heart? Why do people who live here and build businesses here not get to set the priorities?

[Belvidere]

It works fine for commuting and real life traffic. google maps can't tell us what we need to know about putting in 35k people into and out of the stadium by using the "it doesn't look busy in the morning" argument.

For sure this would be a discussion for EV site too. There we wouldn't be eliminating a major street like Oak though. Not only that but it's impacts on other surrounds is greater at this site.

If Downtown KC's road system is barely impacted by 500k-800k going downtown and most of them leaving pretty close to the same time, then why in the world would 35k do anything? I seriously watched downtown traffic during most of the parade event, I even pulled up the cameras from KC Scout. Almost no traffic. And remember, the Broadway Bridge is closed in one direction (more proof that it did not need to become another freeway).

Downtown KC can easily handle a stadium. The main thing will be to force people to not uses the closest exits to the stadium that's all. They need to close many of the tiny exits on the downtown loop and push people to the larger capacity exits and streets like Paseo.

Because they park anywhere and everywhere, then bail out. Columbus Park became their parking lot as did the highway edges, and every business lot that didn't block things off. Which is fine for something like this, an unusual event.

I can only tell you that I've been trapped downtown during rush hour and one major event like a concert. I had to inch my way east and bail out. If there is a backup on the highway, it cascades into the streets.

[Highlander]

So, exactly how would a soccer game at the riverfront, a few concerts at different venues, and a baseball game work at the same time in terms of traffic? We have a highway system that was outdated the minute it was finished and now you're going to burden it in this manner?

I literally watched google maps of downtown all morning and afternoon and other than just a few tiny sections for very brief moments, none of the highways ever even turned orange, let along red. The highways in downtown DC are red all day long every day of the week.

The amount of highway (and surface street) capacity in downtown KC is absolutely nuts. Just like the amount of parking is nuts.

KC doesn't have a highway capacity issue. Getting onto and off the highway in the downtown area isn't most efficient because our downtown is a relatively small area with limited egress and ingress points from the highways. I really don't see a Royals game being a huge problem for downtown traffic. There are simply so many ways into downtown (I almost never take the highways system coming from SKC) and the street car will further alleviate some of the issues.

The places I see issues for downtown is rounding the corner on northbound I-35 and onto I-670 but that should not be too big of an issue as most would exist before that point to get to the crossroads and the major traffic hassle will be after and not before games. US71 North also backs up as it moves onto I-70/29 which could create some issues after games. But overall, egress from the area should be way easier than Royals stadium because there are just so many more routes available to take. That concern is grossly overblown. I guess, living in Houston for much of my life has made me somewhat unsympathetic to traffic issues elsewhere but KC is a pretty easy town compared to just about any large city in the US.

[GRID]

It works fine for commuting and real life traffic. google maps can't tell us what we need to know about putting in 35k people into and out of the stadium by using the "it doesn't look busy in the morning" argument.

For sure this would be a discussion for EV site too. There we wouldn't be eliminating a major street like Oak though. Not only that but it's impacts on other surrounds is greater at this site.

If Downtown KC's road system is barely impacted by 500k-800k going downtown and most of them leaving pretty close to the same time, then why in the world would 35k do anything? I seriously watched downtown traffic during most of the parade event, I even pulled up the cameras from KC Scout. Almost no traffic. And remember, the Broadway Bridge is closed in one direction (more proof that it did not need to become another freeway).

Downtown KC can easily handle a stadium. The main thing will be to force people to not uses the closest exits to the stadium that's all. They need to close many of the tiny exits on the downtown loop and push people to the larger capacity exits and streets like Paseo.

Because they park anywhere and everywhere, then bail out. Columbus Park became their parking lot as did the highway edges, and every business lot that didn't block things off.

For a parade that attracts over half million people maybe, for a baseball game? I don't think so.

I'm not even sure what you are arguing about here. I said the highways (and on/off ramps) were basically wide open during the entire day of the parade. I'm sure some downtown streets got busy with that many people and so many roads shut down, but considering the crowd size, it handled it just fine and that is a very rare event.

Back to Oak. Again, the street becomes southbound only at 10th. Nobody wants to go east of Oak in the loop, they all try to go west of Oak and so everybody tries to turn left onto 13th which can't handle the traffic. Plus you have a lot of "cruisers" in there just circling around the P&L District. Everybody is being lemmings. That's what causes problems. They can't go north past 10th, so they all just sit in traffic. So the city would need to step in and stop people from using Oak just to try and go to 13th or something. It's the same deal with people coming from JoCo that ALL try and use the Broadway exit. Lemmings.

You just need traffic management and some of downtown's streets will need to be modified. Locust should probably be changed to two ways, Oak should probably be changed to one way southbound only through the loop. Without doing a study, it's hard to say, but again, there is plenty of capacity, even if you have to close Oak for a stadium (not that I support that). It would just take a robust traffic/planning department and then make sure they actually implement the plans.

[KCPowercat]

https://www.startlandnews.com/2024/02/c ... rk-royals/

[Belvidere]

If Downtown KC's road system is barely impacted by 500k-800k going downtown and most of them leaving pretty close to the same time, then why in the world would 35k do anything? I seriously watched downtown traffic during most of the parade event, I even pulled up the cameras from KC Scout. Almost no traffic. And remember, the Broadway Bridge is closed in one direction (more proof that it did not need to become another freeway).

Downtown KC can easily handle a stadium. The main thing will be to force people to not uses the closest exits to the stadium that's all. They need to close many of the tiny exits on the downtown loop and push people to the larger capacity exits and streets like Paseo.

Because they park anywhere and everywhere, then bail out. Columbus Park became their parking lot as did the highway edges, and every business lot that didn't block things off.

For a parade that attracts over half million people maybe, for a baseball game? I don't think so.

I'm not even sure what you are arguing about here. I said the highways (and on/off ramps) were basically wide open during the entire day of the parade. I'm sure some downtown streets got busy with that many people and so many roads shut down, but considering the crowd size, it handled it just fine and that is a very rare event.

Back to Oak. Again, the street becomes southbound only at 10th. Nobody wants to go east of Oak in the loop, they all try to go west of Oak and so everybody tries to turn left onto 13th which can't handle the traffic. Plus you have a lot of "cruisers" in there just circling around the P&L District. Everybody is being lemmings. That's what causes problems. They can't go north past 10th, so they all just sit in traffic. So the city would need to step in and stop people from using Oak just to try and go to 13th or something. It's the same deal with people coming from JoCo that ALL try and use the Broadway exit. Lemmings.

You just need traffic management and some of downtown's streets will need to be modified. Locust should probably be changed to two ways, Oak should probably be changed to one way southbound only through the loop. Without doing a study, it's hard to say, but again, there is plenty of capacity, even if you have to close Oak for a stadium (not that I support that). It would just take a robust traffic/planning department and then make sure they actually implement the plans.

Sorry if I don't have evidence to present to you, I'm talking from personal experience.

I live by the North Loop. It's not pretty a lot of the time, especially at peak periods. When you say, we just need traffic management, can you be more specific on what that means? When is it too slow and what is it an acceptable level of slowness? I'm not being sarcastic. There have been times I have simply been unable to get through downtown at all, or north of the river. Not unless I wanted to sit on the highway.

Does that mean the North Loop will never be decommissioned and we are now stuck with it, and all those workshops we went through were for nothing? Is that highway now part of the greater good?

[GRID]

My perspective is from both personal experience perspective as I live in an are with several urban venues and travel to many around the country as well as a professional perspective as traffic engineering is my background. It's still an opinion though.

When events are let out at the arena, are there cops directing traffic at intersections like 13th and Oak? Like here when there are major events, cops are staged at intersections around Nats stadium, Capital One Arena and Camden Yards to push traffic in the correct directions to keep traffic flowing. Many streets will close in certain directions etc. That's what I mean by traffic management. Along with more permanent changes like making streets one way or two way etc.

It will inconvenience some, forcing them to go around before or after events. Even people that live in the area. But it's what needs to happen to get the traffic out of the area as quickly as possible to open the streets back up to normal traffic and for safe pedestrian flow.

My son lives literally across the street from Nats Park. They have to plan around games for this reason. I visit often and games change where and how I can park and what roads I can use. I sometimes wonder if KC sports fans can really do this honestly without getting all frustrated. They are so used to having their hands held to park at most events. They are going to complain a lot, that's for sure. I hope over time they will learn but there will be a learning curve. The first year will be a disaster till everybody finds a routine (favorite garages, routes etc).

I think more people in KC would be fine with a downtown stadium if the arena had a pro team. A LOT more people in the KC area would be used to driving downtown and parking for a sporting event. Right now most people just do not go down there often enough to really get used to how it works. Going to a concert every few years is much different than going to several hockey games a year where most fans will develop their own personal routine that is quick and easy for them.

FYI, I never said the north loop would stay. I think it should become a parkway of some sort. But the bridge will stay and Locust/Oak will remain a major route through downtown to and from the bridge.

[KCPowercat]

When events are let out at the arena, are there cops directing traffic at intersections like 13th and Oak? Like here when there are major events, cops are staged at intersections around Nats stadium, Capital One Arena and Camden Yards to push traffic in the correct directions to keep traffic flowing. Many streets will close in certain directions etc. That's what I mean by traffic management. Along with more permanent changes like making streets one way or two way etc.

Nothing is done.

[GRID]

When events are let out at the arena, are there cops directing traffic at intersections like 13th and Oak? Like here when there are major events, cops are staged at intersections around Nats stadium, Capital One Arena and Camden Yards to push traffic in the correct directions to keep traffic flowing. Many streets will close in certain directions etc. That's what I mean by traffic management. Along with more permanent changes like making streets one way or two way etc.

Nothing is done.

That will absolutely have to change.

[KC_Ari]

When events are let out at the arena, are there cops directing traffic at intersections like 13th and Oak? Like here when there are major events, cops are staged at intersections around Nats stadium, Capital One Arena and Camden Yards to push traffic in the correct directions to keep traffic flowing. Many streets will close in certain directions etc. That's what I mean by traffic management. Along with more permanent changes like making streets one way or two way etc.

Nothing is done.

That is why I can't support this while there is a chance it closes Oak. There is no forward thinking or planning involved in this process and none of the Royal's rollout gives the impression they have any sort of leadership needed to get it done right.

[DColeKC]

When events are let out at the arena, are there cops directing traffic at intersections like 13th and Oak? Like here when there are major events, cops are staged at intersections around Nats stadium, Capital One Arena and Camden Yards to push traffic in the correct directions to keep traffic flowing. Many streets will close in certain directions etc. That's what I mean by traffic management. Along with more permanent changes like making streets one way or two way etc.

Nothing is done.

That will absolutely have to change.

That will require the hiring of more police. There is always a police presence, but they're not always directing traffic.

On the very well attended events, you'll see some traffic cops. I'm sure the Royals will be more like Arrowhead on game days with a ton of cops directing traffic. They'll have to and they already do this at The K, why would they stop downtown.

[DColeKC]

When events are let out at the arena, are there cops directing traffic at intersections like 13th and Oak? Like here when there are major events, cops are staged at intersections around Nats stadium, Capital One Arena and Camden Yards to push traffic in the correct directions to keep traffic flowing. Many streets will close in certain directions etc. That's what I mean by traffic management. Along with more permanent changes like making streets one way or two way etc.

Nothing is done.

That is why I can't support this while there is a chance it closes Oak. There is no forward thinking or planning involved in this process and none of the Royal's rollout gives the impression they have any sort of leadership needed to get it done right.

They have 4 years to figure out ingress and egress. Why do they need to have all operational details down before even finalizing the design?

Why do people assume they're going to build something that's hard to get to, hard to into and hard to get out of? They know that the majority of fans will still need to get to them via car. They know they can't make it too difficult or deliver a bad experience and expect people to come back.

I'm not sure what the final call will be regarding Oak but it doesn't matter. It will be closed on game days. They have so much time to get into the nitty gritty details but they need other things to fall into place before focusing on that.

[KCPowercat]

It most certainly matters for 2/3s of the year and to good urban design and those who care about the entire downtown area, not just this and P&L. No doubt they have time to get into the nitty gritty details but the giving up of Oak is part of what is happening now, the design of the building. Which is again the only reason I mention it, I'm not worried about what traffic cop will be on which corner in July 2030.