KCRag Forum

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shaffe wrote:
Fuck em if they want to stand in the way of our progress. The district has been an amazing thing for downtown revival - but no one project is bigger than the ultimate goal.

This.

I still don't see it passing if it goes to a public vote, though.  Why will this time be any different beyond some wishful thinking?

MidtownCat wrote: This.

I still don't see it passing if it goes to a public vote, though.  Why will this time be any different beyond some wishful thinking?

Is it a city wide vote?  I thought it was local. 

Because only downtown votes for it.

Main or Grand are the only feasible options if you want people to actually use it once it's built.  You go outside the nodes of activity, and people won't use it; and you need those activity nodes to get the thing started in the first place.

When the streetcar system is in place, the probable first utilizers will be tourists and workers at Crown Center taking it to the P&L District and River Market for business and lunch/dinner appointments instead of driving their cars, and downtown loop/RM tourists and workers going to Crown Center/Union Station/IRS area.

Even after it's running, I don't see high ridership in the early years until transit-motivated development occurs along the route. This being new apartment buildings and companies with larger employee bases moving nearby.

In long-range planning, the City should focus heavily on residential development incentives near the route to create a user population that utilizes the streetcar instead of the automobile to do most of their activities.

I would wager the convention center and downtown hotels would prefer the Main route with a turn at Pershing over to Grand so that it will be easier to attract conventions with the streetcar access at Crown Center to the convention center.

You have to ugly up part of the place, right?

i dont want to sift through several dozen pages, in two threads, to get the answer so i'll just state this basic question here:

why, exactly, should we spend tens of millions of dollars on a streetcar circulator downtown?  this strikes me as the kind of thing you implement AFTER you have a lightrail and maybe commuter line in place. 

with the streetcar event at union station, i feel like people are talking about it, and i get the sense that no one really understands why it's a priority, and why it's so costly.  can some wonky transit person like DaveKCMO provide a quick bullet-point guide to why this is good, and why we should reject voting on another LRT? 

thx.

KC's track record with LRT planning isn't great either. The level of compromise always obviates the proposal. It's too expensive to build a new ROW, so we'll make it a streetcar. Myriad entitlements turn the route into a zigzag of 90-degree turns and being subject to traffic and stoplights, just like a bus, except that it can't change lanes. So the result is that KC gets a rail system that is worthless as soon as it's built.

This isn't something that can be resolved with community input at public forums. The solution is money and leadership.

But mostly money.

chrizow wrote: why, exactly, should we spend tens of millions of dollars on a streetcar circulator downtown?  this strikes me as the kind of thing you implement AFTER you have a lightrail and maybe commuter line in place. 

I would hope that KC doesn't do light rail (LRT) at all.  It's not really a good mode for KC.  LRT is much more expensive to maintain, so much that many cities have to cut feeder bus service to support LRT.  And LRT has the ugly power lines that modern streetcars don't have.  A streetcar makes more sense for downtown, commuter rail on freight lines to the burbs, and improved BRT (MAX) through the city core.  Can probably build/maintain 4+ BRT lines for the price of one LRT line.

Once the streetcar is in place it will complement commuter rail form the burbs coming into Union Station.  Two lines from Lee's Summit/Independence are in the works.  More BRT lines could get to the rest of the core more effectively than a single LRT line.

How is a streetcar better than a bus on the same route?

chrizow wrote: i dont want to sift through several dozen pages, in two threads, to get the answer so i'll just state this basic question here:

why, exactly, should we spend tens of millions of dollars on a streetcar circulator downtown?  this strikes me as the kind of thing you implement AFTER you have a lightrail and maybe commuter line in place. 

with the streetcar event at union station, i feel like people are talking about it, and i get the sense that no one really understands why it's a priority, and why it's so costly.  can some wonky transit person like DaveKCMO provide a quick bullet-point guide to why this is good, and why we should reject voting on another LRT? 

thx.

I think the simple answer is - this is the rail transit system that is feasible at this point.

bahua wrote: How is a streetcar better than a bus on the same route?

The only honest answer is that it is sexier.

chrizow wrote: why, exactly, should we spend tens of millions of dollars on a streetcar circulator downtown?  this strikes me as the kind of thing you implement AFTER you have a lightrail and maybe commuter line in place. 

I think Max pretty much nailed it. We'll never be able to do LRT, ever, because too much of KCMO's population resides in low density, sprawly godawful suburban shitland, and it is impossible to build a system that serves all of them, so they won't vote for it. This is, embarrassingly, the best we can do.

More pics:

http://transactionkc.com/2011/08/23/exc ... n-on-dcaa/

bahua wrote: How is a streetcar better than a bus on the same route?

Frankly it's not in effectiveness.  I'm fine with bus myself but the reality is to attract riders not accustomed to transit, they want some cutesy rail thing.  Let's build a small one and then focus on effective transit, not the image.

Sexier and fixed routes have shown more development potential than a bus line that can easily be relocated.

It's a shame that a lack of flexibility is attractive.

Its attractive for business....also property values.

thanks for the pics. We got there at 610 and were told the car was "closed" 

tella100 wrote: thanks for the pics. We got there at 610 and were told the car was "closed" 

Same here. Got to the car about 6:15 after listening to the Mayor, et al.