Re: Rail to KCI - 2023
Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2023 7:02 pm
Station naming also affects system legibility. You'll never see them sold for KC Streetcar. Use intersections, neighborhoods, or landmarks.
I generally agree with this. This land is going to be worth a lot along a transit route, it's logical to try and fund rail with TOD. I don't think we should be using Highway ROW. There is not enough room without doing significant work on the highway itself and it does not connect neighborhoods and communities. It's also not pleasant for riders to be right by cars whizzing by at 75 mph.dnweava wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:10 pm Here is my plan for rail to KCI. A public-private partnership light rail line. Could we bring in enough money with land development rights, naming rights, etc that we could build this without much public money? If we could bring the cost down to say just needing $10 million per year, the city could easily find that in the couch cushions of the city's $2 billion per year budget.
Brightline in Florida is building a private passenger rail line because they have the development rights at the stations so lets use that idea. So near many of the stations on my proposed route, the city will give the developer the land through eminent domain or whatever (marked in yellow on my maps below) and make that land as valuable as possible by having zero parking minimums and no density maximums so that land would be worth a ton to the right developer.
surely station names could be worth something too, seems some other systems have sold station naming rights for millions. "Walmart Zona Rosa Station", Target @ Metro North Station, Coca Cola Station @ KCI terminal, etc. I'd guess those could bring in millions per year.
Here is the route:
Segment 1: With this serving the airport, find a way to have airport revenues partially fund this section.
(1) KCI Terminal
(2) KCI Car Rental
(3) KCI long term parking
(4) KCI expo - serves hotels, expo center, and land to be given to developer.
Segment 2: Use highway right of way to get from the KCI area to Briarcliff. 29, 152, and 169.
(5) Tiffany Springs
(6) Zona Rosa (build a pedestrian bridge across the highway to station)
(7) Twin Creeks
(8) Metro North
(9) unnamed station
(10) Englewood
Segment 3: Briarcliff to the riverfront. build on the levee. Swing around NKC to have stops where big development opportunities exist.
(11) Briarcliff
(12) Downtown NKC
(13) NKC Hospital - Harrah's
(14) Riverront: Connection to Streetcar and Current KC soccer stadium
Segment 4: River to Union Station. Something I've never seen proposed before is using the Paseo right of way. This is a street with massive potential. Build this section as a cut and cover subway. (Green part of line indicates the subway section), then use the railway corridor to get over to union station.
(15) 11th/Paseo: Area has MASSIVE development potential and brings downtown east. Walkable to Royals east village stadium
(16) 18th/Vine:
(17) Union Station: connections to streetcar and Amtrak
A new revenue source -- rather than pretending you can use the existing ones, which already pay for citywide bus service. The city has another 1/8-cent they can add to the 3/8-cent, but that's a tax increase (and still not enough to build light rail to MCI).
Thanks Dave, good to have that context.DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 9:27 amA new revenue source -- rather than pretending you can use the existing ones, which already pay for citywide bus service. The city has another 1/8-cent they can add to the 3/8-cent, but that's a tax increase (and still not enough to build light rail to MCI).
FlyAway is an excellent model for our region. Premium express bus service from multiple parts of the metro, acknowledging that's kinda how the airport's market actually is.
Cratedigger wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:27 pm Thanks for the consolidation. To my untrained eye the 2023 plan to KCI does look pretty similar to Clay’s 2016 sketch
Meh. He's a quack who refused to build a coalition.SouthKC_Citizen wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 7:21 pmCratedigger wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:27 pm Thanks for the consolidation. To my untrained eye the 2023 plan to KCI does look pretty similar to Clay’s 2016 sketch
Can someone educate me on why our city absolutely brushed Clay Chastain off and quite honestly demonized him? Like, it just seems like we are slowly implementing/proposing everything he wanted. If we didn’t brush him off we could’ve had a light rail system years ago to and from the airport, and the stadiums ready for use in 2026. If we did this earlier on we could’ve saved money on construction cost - but no, why would we listen to Clay from Virginia.
The line creek ROW is in the middle of the woods. The ridership from DT to the airport is not high enough to demand a $1B light rail. Look at DIA light rail has underperformed ridership significantly. You need to increase the walk-shed in exchange for speed. This also will better support denser development. Installing smart traffic lights and dedicated lanes for transit is a fine medium between full grade seperation and our current system.langosta wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:36 am I would suggest using grade separated ROW like the Line Creek ROW where possible. You can achieve much higher speeds and reduced construction costs. DO NOT USE NORTH OAK AND BARRY LOL. That is a 1.5 hour trip in the making
Also use HOA instead of Bond to reduce mileage (unless you think that’s an 80 mph segment with no stops then it’s faster).
Besançon's tramway might have been low cost (€17 million/km), yet it doesn't look "cheap" IRL, but rather sober: clear enrobé (bitumen conglomerate) and wild grass dominate the platform outside of the historic center, but granite curbs are used everywhere.
https://twitter.com/ChittiMarco/status/ ... 80193?s=20And it goes around quite fast in the more suburban sections
Exactly. You would have VERY low ridership on a full blown BRT line to KCI and in the process you would actually make the trip considerably slower between Downtown and KCI because of all the added stops.smh wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:02 am It has been said above, but the problem with even a BRT line is there simply isn't the ridership demand between the airport and downtown for that level of infrastructure. There also isn't a meaningful congestion problem for transit today, so there is little incentive to use the expense of BRT to "solve". I want a nice regional heavy or light rail system as much as the next person, but the fact is KC is so sprawled and the downtown so weak as a regional center that it is very hard to justify any increased level of service based on ridership.
That said, if City Hall wanted to subsidize an express line to the airport because of a belief/understanding that it would increase the competitiveness of downtown in the future then perhaps that makes sense. But like Dave has said, if it is funded out of the existing funding stream, you're basically robbing KCMO residents of higher quality bus service in the core to pay for a handful of riders between the airport and downtown.
I feel like we've heard this other places, but do we know this to be the case at KCI? (Maybe we do?) I feel like a lot of people today from downtown are taking Uber to the airport, and even if they are driving, we're still talking a relative handful of people (hence the weak demand for a transit line) which means any dent to parking revenue or car rentals is probably very small.KCPowercat wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 12:06 pm It's hard because as been stated before how much parking revenue KCI gets. Add on rental car companies who built the big new RCF don't want to see alternatives.
This. Most people that would use transit to the airport are probably not the same people paying to park there. Airport employees, airline crews, people that live in the downtown area, people staying at central city hotels etc. The vast majority of airport users (probably 95%) will still drive to the airport, even if KC had a full blown dedicated Light Rail line to KCI (which is not feasible and won't get any federal support).smh wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 1:08 pmI feel like we've heard this other places, but do we know this to be the case at KCI? (Maybe we do?) I feel like a lot of people today from downtown are taking Uber to the airport, and even if they are driving, we're still talking a relative handful of people (hence the weak demand for a transit line) which means any dent to parking revenue or car rentals is probably very small.KCPowercat wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 12:06 pm It's hard because as been stated before how much parking revenue KCI gets. Add on rental car companies who built the big new RCF don't want to see alternatives.