KCMO Downtown Streetcar

[earthling]

The cases for streetcar compared to bus methinks are 'transit oriented development' creating denser urbanity and less fear of trains than bus from many for some reason. Frankly there is literally no difference from taking MAX bus or downtown bus circulator vs streetcar. Zero. At least in KC's situation. Yeah, there is level onboarding, etc but that alone isn't justification for $100M for about 2 miles.

It is clear that the streetcar spurs development along the route and that wouldn't happen to same degree along a bus route. A developer never said they chose a spot because it is near a MAX stop, yet several specifically point out spurring projects being near streetcar stop. The streetcar encourages denser pedestrian scale development and filling in surface lots - ultimately a healthier pedestrian scale urban vibe. That alone is worth it.

Many car dependent people who don't understand pedestrian scale living won't 'get it'.

[flyingember]

The development one doesn't work by itself. You have to couple it to money and this is where one hot button issue works.

You can say you would rather see an investment in the city that is something developers want to be next to than putting $100 million into an incentive for a bunch of developers that will go elsewhere if they don't get it.

People will understand that.

[DaveKCMO]

Frankly there is literally no difference from taking MAX bus or downtown bus circulator vs streetcar. Zero. At least in KC's situation. Yeah, there is level onboarding, etc but that alone isn't justification for $100M for about 2 miles.

as one of the few here that's actually ridden both -- and is paying for the latter -- i can tell you it's worth every penny of my $208.35 special assessment each year.

here's another visual to support the case:



max # of bikes on board a bus is 3. we had a least 8 with plenty of room to spare.

[flyingember]

max # of bikes on board a bus is 3. we had a least 8 with plenty of room to spare.

Off the top of my head I've used level boarding in 4-5 cities

Tell me how many bikes it holds after there's other riders that don't want to move from their spot near the door. This is designed capacity not practical capacity.
I've ridden systems in other cities where you could easily get that many on and other times you would never get more than one bike inside without being a jerk and pushing against people. It just depended on when it was.

I've had the same problem myself with a stroller. Sometimes it was just easier to fold it up and carry it and the kid.

[aknowledgeableperson]

The arguments for either side are really very simple.
If you are going to use a streetcar then you maximize it's benefits and minimize it's negatives.
If you are not going to utilize the streetcar you will maximize it's negatives and minimize it's benefits.
And both sides will argue back and forth and will continue to argue back and forth without changing anyone's mind.

[DaveKCMO]

max # of bikes on board a bus is 3. we had a least 8 with plenty of room to spare.

Off the top of my head I've used level boarding in 4-5 cities

Tell me how many bikes it holds after there's other riders that don't want to move from their spot near the door. This is designed capacity not practical capacity.
I've ridden systems in other cities where you could easily get that many on and other times you would never get more than one bike inside without being a jerk and pushing against people. It just depended on when it was.

the point is the max bike capacity for a bus is ALWAYS three (since we were comparing streetcar to bus). no exceptions, wait for the next arrival. streetcar will vary depending who else is on board, but the experience today proved there are lots of places to stow a bike with four doors (only two of them are level boarding, where wheelchairs take priority).

[flyingember]

The max bike capacity of the train is going to be lower than the bus relative to the total capacity.

Because the bikes can only go inside the train they reduce space from people and this is shared space where people will go too. So there's going to be a realistic maximum number of bikes that it can hold. 8 empty isn't the same as 8 with 30 riders on it trying to get off around a bike. (obviously)

So while a bus can only hold 3 bikes the train needs to hold more than 12 bikes and not impact seating to be comparable to the same amount of bus capacity. Sure, it doesn't instantly block the 4th bike rider like the bus but it doesn't mean there will be space for a 4th bike at any given time or that they should try to. with the bus it's instantly obvious if another bike will fit or not.

[mean]

as one of the few here that's actually ridden both -- and is paying for the latter -- i can tell you it's worth every penny of my $208.35 special assessment each year.

That dollar figure, which is less than probably just about anyone with decent coverage pays for car insurance, is interesting. It goes without saying that if you can get pretty much anywhere you need to go on transit and don't need a vehicle, you're saving a lot of money. But does that still work if you scale it up to cover the entire urban core? If not, why not, and other than the obvious extreme opposition from certain sectors, is there a good reason why (as far as I can tell) nobody seems to be seriously talking about making parking and driving as difficult as possible rather than as easy as possible? At some point I feel like the paradigm needs to shift from, "We need to make driving and parking in the city as painless as possible otherwise people won't come," to, "People are going to come regardless, we need to make driving and parking as huge of a pain in the ass as possible in favor of transit and pedestrians and bicycles to 1) encourage people not to drive/park in the city, and 2) fuel demand for transit so we can get it done."

I don't think the chicken-and-egg problem will ever be solved as long as we continue to pander to the automobile. People already throw fits about parking and there isn't even a problem. I say give them something to cry about like the spoiled little children they are.

[bobbyhawks]

The max bike capacity of the train is going to be lower than the bus relative to the total capacity.

Because the bikes can only go inside the train they reduce space from people and this is shared space where people will go too. So there's going to be a realistic maximum number of bikes that it can hold. 8 empty isn't the same as 8 with 30 riders on it trying to get off around a bike. (obviously)

So while a bus can only hold 3 bikes the train needs to hold more than 12 bikes and not impact seating to be comparable to the same amount of bus capacity. Sure, it doesn't instantly block the 4th bike rider like the bus but it doesn't mean there will be space for a 4th bike at any given time or that they should try to. with the bus it's instantly obvious if another bike will fit or not.

Maybe relative to capacity, but not close if you base it on frequency. Three buses don't show up at the same time. Also, I've ridden enough trams and streetcars to realize it is not a burden for passengers to go around bikes. I think the picture shows there is plenty of elbow room.

[Highlander]

Someone asked me why the city was spending so much money on a 2-mile route for what is basically just "an electric bus." Since the streetcar can only funtion as a bus, why not just use a bus and save the money?

I don't know if I gave them them best answer, but I basically said the 2-mile route was just the starter line and that we plan (hope) to have extentions to it which will require it's own rail line off public roads. Also, they carry more people than a bus.

Is there a better answer I could have given them? It seemed like an underwhelming answer. But this person doesn't understand the need for transportation options, so maybe they would have been lost no matter what I said.

There are many reasons that Streetcars trump buses. For me, they are just so much more convenient to use. You know the route, you know the stops. Easier to get on, easier to get off. With buses, I'm never quite sure I understand the route, if I got on the right bus, if I know explicitly where to get off and they are smallish and kind of a pain in the butt. I went all over Europe with streetcars and subways only taking buses when I absolutely had to. As a user, there is no comparison.

[earthling]

There's a big difference between buses and transit with dedicated right of ways but there is less difference with modern buses and streetcar in terms of getting from point A to B - both still have to deal with street traffic/lights. The newer KC buses are lower to ground, just one step up (and could be level boarding if stops designed for it), MAX stops show time to next bus and even all KC buses (I think all) now have GPS so using phone app shows next bus arrival in realtime. Knowing route isn't as important anymore with mobile apps. On Google Now (Android/iPhone) you just state your destination, click on transit icon and it shows best bus/transit to take, detailed walking instructions to closest stop and next arrival in real time, with a count down timer for bus systems that use GPS on all buses. I use it in many cities not having a clue how the bus system works, no need to look up routes or pre-plan.

So even though the difference isn't significant, I still support streetcar over bus because developers will build density and improve pedestrian scale experience along fixed rail lines, not bus lines. Have yet to hear a developer say they did a project because it is near a MAX stop, but several have specifically pointed out streetcar as the reason they did a project. A couple are out of town developers that came to KC because of the streetcar investment.

[flyingember]

Maybe relative to capacity, but not close if you base it on frequency. Three buses don't show up at the same time.

While all true, that's not something you would necessarily install a train to fix.

If you're arguing frequency you're better off buying more busses given the similar long term cost. Because with four busses for every one today you get room for 12 bikes and 160 people. With the train you get 12 bikes on board and you're not getting 160 people on the train.

[beautyfromashes]

Environmental impact, streetscaping done at the time of installation, status that it brings as a modern city and signal to developers on where money will be spent in the future to make their developments feel more viable and secure to investors/financiers.

[KCPowercat]

Has testing of the schedule in the evenings around multiple events revealed anything about delays being caused between 12th and Truman?

[DaveKCMO]

Has testing of the schedule in the evenings around multiple events revealed anything about delays being caused between 12th and Truman?

a couple of things on that:

- yes (short answer, but not knowing exactly the points you're talking about)
- city recently installed bollards inside the cosentino's garage -- if you're a casual user entering on main, you have to exit on walnut (you may have noticed that both entry/exit lanes on walnut are open most of the time now)
- working with city market (almost as dicey as CBD) on a traffic plan for market saturdays. i've suggested a north loop 'park and ride' since that area is vacant all weekend. could even (gasp!) charge for city parking to encourage bike/walk/transit.
- traffic signal priority is enabled and testing (as is automatic pedestrian detection)

FYI - effective today, streetcar is testing on a full sunday schedule (every 18m between 7a-10p). this will be more 'regular' and help them filter out a lot more issues day and night. once we get the 4th vehicle it's full schedule simulation!

[pash]

.

[KCPowercat]

Has testing of the schedule in the evenings around multiple events revealed anything about delays being caused between 12th and Truman?

a couple of things on that:

- yes (short answer, but not knowing exactly the points you're talking about)
- city recently installed bollards inside the cosentino's garage -- if you're a casual user entering on main, you have to exit on walnut (you may have noticed that both entry/exit lanes on walnut are open most of the time now)
- working with city market (almost as dicey as CBD) on a traffic plan for market saturdays. i've suggested a north loop 'park and ride' since that area is vacant all weekend. could even (gasp!) charge for city parking to encourage bike/walk/transit.
- traffic signal priority is enabled and testing (as is automatic pedestrian detection)

FYI - effective today, streetcar is testing on a full sunday schedule (every 18m between 7a-10p). this will be more 'regular' and help them filter out a lot more issues day and night. once we get the 4th vehicle it's full schedule simulation!

Nothing specific to my comment other than I see a lot of backed up traffic almost exclusively in the evenings with multiple events going on between 12th and Truman mostly northbound... I didn't know if testing has shown a lot of slowdown and impact to schedule in that situation... While it looks like a big backup maybe it isn't really delaying the streetcar much.

I hadn't noticed the cosentinos garage changes. Entrance seems to be a bigger issue than exit

[normalthings]

Will the streetcar be operating the entire scheduled day now?

[DaveKCMO]

Will the streetcar be operating the entire scheduled day now?

just the sunday schedule for now, but yes.

[flyingember]

I finally got downtown again with the train running.

I'm going out on a limb and am going to say the train will cause more traffic than it gets into. At 4:30 I saw one train leave Union Station from above it and with all but one light green didn't catch up with it until 7th St. It screams through downtown.