KCMO Downtown Streetcar

[bobbyhawks]

I vote for removing the tree wells from 12th-14th so there is more space to walk. But let's plant tons of trees along the rest of the route. I just need more walking space on those blocks, particularly the east side.

+1. KC walkers are extremely slow walkers, and it is near impossible to pass a group of people without passing on the 1 foot-wide curb side. There are certain places along that stretch where it is even awkward for two people to pass one another. The metal sidewalk-level grates aren't much better, since they are very slippery when wet.

[smh]

I vote for removing the tree wells from 12th-14th so there is more space to walk. But let's plant tons of trees along the rest of the route. I just need more walking space on those blocks, particularly the east side.

The metal sidewalk-level grates aren't much better, since they are very slippery when wet.

And tend to have an unsteady bounce when you walk on them. And let us not forget the risk of being clocked by a door swinging into the already tiny walking zone.

[DaveKCMO]

streetcar has entered 'pre-revenue operations', the final step before simulated service (running the full schedule) and sign-off to open from the state and feds.

[KCPowercat]

Any details about what prerevenue service means?

[DaveKCMO]

Any details about what prerevenue service means?

here's what the FTA says:

6.3.6 Pre-Revenue Operations
Successful completion of system integration tests usually constitutes “substantial completion” and leads to the start of pre-revenue operations and testing. Sufficient time must be allocated to complete all testing and operations training prior to the date established to begin revenue service. These operations should be designed to mimic revenue operations and maintenance activities, except that passengers will not be carried. The following items may be considered in the evaluation of pre-revenue operations:
• Notification procedures
• Control center response
• Transportation supervisory response
• Maintenance response
• Emergency responder response
• Traction power sectionalization
• Loss of signals and/or communications
• Accident investigation procedures
• Single-tracking performance
• Simulated bus substitution
• Train evacuation
• Assumption of authority
• Rescue train
• Simulated public notification
• “On the line” vehicle troubleshooting
• Simulated emergency training

[KCPowercat]

Cool... Thanks.

[DaveKCMO]

tested with disabled passengers yesterday. this feature combo -- 100% low floor vehicle interior + fully-level boarding + no buckling in of wheelchair users -- does not exist in the bus world. period.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/ar ... 22437.html

[KCPowercat]

That's an awesome benefit I never even considered.

[bobbyhawks]

That's an awesome benefit I never even considered.

+1

[AllThingsKC]

Someone asked me why the city was spending so much money on a 2-mile route for what is basically just "an electric bus." Since the streetcar can only funtion as a bus, why not just use a bus and save the money?

I don't know if I gave them them best answer, but I basically said the 2-mile route was just the starter line and that we plan (hope) to have extentions to it which will require it's own rail line off public roads. Also, they carry more people than a bus.

Is there a better answer I could have given them? It seemed like an underwhelming answer. But this person doesn't understand the need for transportation options, so maybe they would have been lost no matter what I said.

[bobbyhawks]

I'd add that a fixed rail route cannot be easily shifted around, which ends up being a great thing for both passengers and businesses.

Passengers know the route will not change, and the planning it takes to create the route in the first place has to be in line with all visions for the future, rather than based on reactions to temporary shifts in behavior. Rail lines, in my experience, also tend to be way easier to understand as an interwoven transportation grid. They are designed to define the main arteries of the city, and I gravitate towards rail-based systems above buses almost always when I'm in another city. There is generally more thought put into the stations, the boarding process, and preparing passengers for the ride. I've hopped on buses in other cities before and not been prepared at all with exact change or knowledge of a re-routed line.

Businesses know that the streetcar line will not move anytime in the near future. If you are considering buying a building or moving a business, the fixed rail line is much more of a guarantee that the city is dedicated to encouraging growth in these areas than even a 10 year tax abatement.

*Edit* - I'll also add that you can't claim that a bus system does anything to promote growth in an area. A bus line just follows growth. You can absolutely encourage economic benefit just by announcing a streetcar. The day the streetcar was announced, I'd imagine the property value of most buildings directly on the route shot way up. In some instances, I wouldn't be shocked if the property value doubled. Contrary to what some businesses along the line claim, rising property values aren't some burden applied by the evil streetcar overlords, but rather a result of demand, and a sign that people want to be a part of downtown, specifically along Main Street. There is no way announcing a bus system could come close. It was actually done a number of years ago with the MAX.

[loftguy]

You are right ATC. Streetcars have greater capacity than buses and more people tend to ride.
Also:
Streetcars are quieter and cleaner operations than buses.
Streetcars last longer and can be more affordable than buses over the long term.
Streetcar fixed placement assures riders of where they are going
Streetcars are still novel tourist attractions in U.S.
Streetcars are economic development generators because developers can trust that investment will still be there over long term. No so with bus transport

[DaveKCMO]

Someone asked me why the city was spending so much money on a 2-mile route for what is basically just "an electric bus." Since the streetcar can only funtion as a bus, why not just use a bus and save the money?

I don't know if I gave them them best answer, but I basically said the 2-mile route was just the starter line and that we plan (hope) to have extentions to it which will require it's own rail line off public roads. Also, they carry more people than a bus.

Is there a better answer I could have given them? It seemed like an underwhelming answer. But this person doesn't understand the need for transportation options, so maybe they would have been lost no matter what I said.

things people can't argue with:

1. higher capacity (especially our streetcar model, there isn't a bus anywhere that can carry 150 people -- let alone with most of them standing, see #3)
2. accessibility features (specifically 100% low floor)
3. ride quality
4. quieter (even than an electric bus)
5. tight turns (our model can handle an 18m turning radius -- see 5th and delaware -- no bus has enough articulation to do that)

[mean]

I happened to be noshing an omelette at City Diner this morning when the streetcar rolled by. I'd seen it rolling around a few times from fairly far away, but having a fairly big ass train silently pop out of nowhere and appear just a couple feet away was actually a bit startling. In a good way.

But it also drove home the point that we REALLY gotta get this thing expanded.

[flyingember]

I don't know if I gave them them best answer, but I basically said the 2-mile route was just the starter line and that we plan (hope) to have extentions to it which will require it's own rail line off public roads. Also, they carry more people than a bus.

It's a bit of a stretch (I roughed in the math so this is all true) but the combination is to admit it's expensive to install but point out the train holds 150 people, a bus holds 35, so you need a LOT of busses taking up space on the road and you have to hire a lot more bus drivers to equal one train. You point out the cost of labor for all those busses compared to the lifespan of the rail before it has to be replaced are basically the same. Any pay rate someone brings up you always say "don't forget benefits" so they don't lowball their number.

The goal is to point our you either spend money now or you spend money later. it's not like the bus alternative is $10 million and the train is $100 million at all, you're looking at more like $75 million for the bus up to the bus costing more than the train depending on your assumptions.

There's a valid argument in people wanting to pay workers over 20 years vs installing rail and paying an out of town company, but you've suddenly come upon a logical reason to be against the train, and that's a lot better than "the train is more expensive" when it's not really.

If you get into articulated busses and busways you point out it costs money to put in longer stops or dedicated lanes So you are just moving where you spend the money. This again, is someone thinking about alternatives which is a huge step forward from a No person.

[KCPowercat]

exactly

[flyingember]

things people can't argue with:

1. higher capacity (especially our streetcar model, there isn't a bus anywhere that can carry 150 people -- let alone with most of them standing, see #3)
2. accessibility features (specifically 100% low floor)
3. ride quality
4. quieter (even than an electric bus)
5. tight turns (our model can handle an 18m turning radius -- see 5th and delaware -- no bus has enough articulation to do that)

Don't use these items. Yes, they're all legit reasons but they don't move the discussion forward and if you think like a pessimist they make one sound like a pretentious hipster that only cares about themselves, and I seriously doubt you think that way.

No one who's against about the train will ever care about items 3,4,5.

Item 1 is easily argued against by buying more busses. I know you can double up trains and that's a benefit, most people see the cost to install rail and don't care.

Item 2 is true compared to KCATA busses but we could buy low floor busses and get the same benefit http://www.edmonton.ca/ets/low-floor-buses.aspx

[bobbyhawks]

The return argument against the capacity argument tends to be that buses are more flexible, and you can move buses around with population. The "toy train" crowd does not believe anyone will use the streetcar. That is why I just start with the inflexibility is a good thing position, so they can't plant a flag in "nobody but a few tourists will ever ride it."

[flyingember]

The return argument against the capacity argument tends to be that buses are more flexible, and you can move buses around with population.

that's a good point and I thought of a similar one

The train is advertised as being most useful for areas a certain distance away. if more capacity is the goal downtown, the same total capacity of busses could be split among three streets, so people don't have to walk as much and people further away benefit.

The counterpoint to this isn't complex, though it's not one to fight for the position if it doesn't work. "We've had a bus system for 60+ years, the bus company has done a great job at changing routes for meet demand and jobs are still leaving downtown. The train comes and several companies quote it as the reason they're locating downtown."

[pash]

.