Nov. 4th, how are you voting?

[mean]

Ah just luv the small minds I am surrounded by.

That guy who made that site must be a moron, because there is no way a goverment would help fund just an expirment.

First of all, it's not any more of an experiment than any other transit. It hasn't been built before, but that doesn't qualify it as an experiment. It's mostly concrete, with some plastic and magnets and well understood scientific principles. It's about as much of an experiment as using existing materials and knowledge to build a new kind of G.I. Joe.

And the government doesn't have to have anything to do with it, which is the real kicker. SkyTran is funding agnostic, and since the system can turn a profit even with relatively low riderships, commercial ownership is a real possibility -- unlike light rail or whatever.

And come on. Morons don't engineer rockets or maglev systems. Morons do things like troll message boards.

The guy says it could be done with $1,000,000 a mile building cost!
NO WAY DOGG!

The Seattle Monorail extension to West Seattle is in upwards of 60 million a mile!

The Las Vegas monorail is costing the casinos in some cases 100 million a mile

Skytran is fundamentally different than either the Seattle or Las Vegas systems, and even if $1 mil / mile is lowball -- and I don't think it is -- and the actual price ends up being ten times more than projected, it's still cheaper than anything else.

You dismiss the price out of hand without looking at what goes into the construction. Is this how to accurately determine the cost? By making uneducated guesses? NO WAY DOGG!

[KCPowercat]

it's an interesting idea....I'd like to see a "beta" system somewhere....say 1/2 mile system just to see it fleshed out.

[mean]

Absolutely, I agree. Unfortunately, it would be a lot more than $500,000 to build an initial half mile test guideway -- the $1,000,000 / mile figure is based on building an entire system, so the manufacturing costs for all the parts goes down because they can be mass produced, introducing economies of scale, blah blah blah (a basic understanding of Econ 101 is assumed). It would be worth determining where the economic 'sweet spot' is and shooting for a test line where we could reap the benefits of mass production without making a firm commitment. It may be like 20 miles though, and 20 million bux is more than I think people are willing to spend on a test, no matter how promising it looks on paper.

What we really need is a commercial interest to invest in a test. Considering that we've paid consultants and architecture firms and developers and the ATA and who knows how many other people umpteen million dollars to continually FAIL to create a solution, it'd be worth it for the city to invest in a test line...but they won't, mainly because most people share the "it's impossible because I say so" attitudes of so many on this forum. An investor with vision would be preferable.

I've considered spearheading a for-profit transit company and seeking those very investors, building the thing, and laughing all the way to the bank while people's perceptions of transit are shattered. Maybe someday.

[dangerboy]

I don't see how being the first city to implement this sky train thing would make it cheaper than light rail. Rail systems are already standardized so it's much easier to buy off-the-shelf parts - e.g. rails, wheels, cars, signalling equipment, electrical supplies, motors, etc. A system based on existing standards, specifications, and components would be much cheaper.

[mean]

Your argument sounds logical but is still incorrect. With SkyTran, for example, you don't need signaling equipment, switches, rails and ties, or expensive rights-of-way. There are a lot more cars but they are relatively tiny (2 passenger) and extremely cheap to mass produce. The guideway and the support poles are just simple (cheap!) prefab concrete. No need for miles of (expensive!) steel rails or (expensive!) wooden ties.

An expense will of course be incurred constructing the passive maglev motors which reside in each car, but your assumption that it will necessarily be more expensive than traditional methods is silly and based on random guesswork. Fortunately, I am here to set you right.

The Inductrak system is described by Lawrence Livermore Labs as:

Inductrack involves two main components: a special array of permanent, room-temperature magnets mounted on the vehicle and a track embedded with close-packed coils of insulated copper wire. The permanent magnets are arranged in configurations called Halbach arrays, named after Klaus Halbach, retired Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory physicist. Originally conceived for particle accelerators, Halbach arrays concentrate the magnetic field on one side, while canceling it on the opposite side. When mounted on the bottom of a rail car, the arrays generate a magnetic field that induces currents in the track coils below the moving car, lifting the car by several centimeters and stably centering it.

So we have some magnets and some copper wire. Give it some electricity and you have levitation due to the special arrangement of the magnets and wire. Cheap! This type of frictionless bearing is discussed in this September 1999 Popular Mechanics article reproduced on SkyTran's site and this dissertation at Lawrence Livermore National Labs site.

So what have we learned? SkyTran utilizes cheaply buildable frictionless motors. This means they are not only extremely cheap to build, but they don't break -- because they can't! There's nothing to break. No friction means no wear and tear, no maintenance. Also, no drivers to pay. Light rail can never hope to accomplish that.

Arizona has been considering SkyTran for years, but it hasn't been done despite numerous feasibility studies which say it is cheaper, faster, safer, and more effective than any other option. Why? Are they crazy? No...it's because people refuse to accept reality until it is been bashed into their faces a million times (how many more bashes do I need here?), and because there are a lot of rich people who have a vested financial interest in making sure we keep building oldschool rail.

[KCDevin]

what do we do that now Q1 Passed and Q3 failed?
well use buses and not trains?
also, I have been hoping for rail as a metro system, I guess it won't happen right now. Look at Washington! Its a success there, also, these people who voted no don't know that our metro just gained 4 counties putting us at 9,000+ square miles!!

[phxcat]

Devin- enough with the four extra counties! If they hadn't been added officially, they would still be there- and, if anything, adding about 20,000 people over four extra counties would only make rail less likely, not more. We need density- that is what makes rail successful in DC.

By the way- Tucson just voted light rail down 2-1

[tat2kc]

Now that the ATA proposal passed, we have a good opportunity:

the tax only lasts 5 years. In this span, we need to develop a comprehensive metropolitan public transit plan. This includes not only a metro wide funding source, but also the merging of the ATA, the JO, and The Bus. We also need to look closely at the SmartMoves plan, and insure that it provides a good system for all. We also need a board that represents those areas that actually use the system. The board and the system need to be independent of any specific city (especially KCMO).

We've got a great chance to build a good system, and the time to do it. Those of us who pay for it and want to see the Metro prosper need to hold these folks accountable and make sure they do the right thing.

[ignatius]

Great to see that ATA tax passed and the ridiculous Chastain "plan" fail. Now let's get the Downtowner bus back. Email metro@kcata.org to request bringing the Downtown/CC loop bus back. They also need a CC/Plaza loop back for the tourists as well.

Email metro@kcata.org

[KCPowercat]

The question was failing early as reported on channel 2 and Channel 9....must count the north of the river votes first....

As much as I hate voting for stop gap measures, this one had to be done in my opinion...now let's get a real plan in place.

[tat2kc]

KC, your'e right! But let's not wait till 6 months before the tax expires to get motivated. If the ATA can show that they spent the five years of this tax fixing problems, and developing a real, working, solution, then there is a good chance that a good solution can be put in place. Try to extend an open hand to the JO, but only up to a point. If JOCO does not want to help solve the transit issue, then focus on those counties and cities that want to be part of the solution. It would be wonderful is Joco is part of the overall metropolitan transit program, but let's not be too dependent on them.

And we need to strongly remind the ATA board that, as a tax supported entitiy, they work for US!