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Post by StL_Dan »

QueSi2Opie wrote:
StL_Dan wrote:Rather, it is validated by my own undeniable experience with God....what I've witnessed him do in my and other's lives.

Most people have a hard time understanding God and the concept of Christianity because they are too busy trying to find something or someone that fits their own agenda and allows them to live the way they want to live.
Okay, I'm not gonna attempt to go back and discuss the ridiculous statement about how your God is the truth and all other Gods are false. There's probably only one God, and he accepts all religions, but frowns upon hypocrites.

People of every religion CLAIM to have had a personal undeniable experience with their God!

Something that fits their own agenda?!?!? I'm not talkin' about Satanists here! I'm talkin' about people who have never touched alcohol, caffeine, tobacco, etc. People who spend their lives in holy cities and never marry or have sex. People who sacrifice their lives literally for their beliefs! Most Christians could only dream of being as devoted to Christianity as many Muslims, Hindus, Mormons and Buddhists are to their religions. All I see here is Christian arrogance and hypocrisy.

I think we can learn a lot from different types of religion because they all mix historical facts with fairy tales, plus they are important in keeping weak people in line. Unless of course they are extremists that twist the Bible or Koran. The most powerful thing in religion is the human mind. If we truely believe, we begin to see things and feel things that only our mind is creating...no one else!
I respect you, Que. But I don't agree with your opinion. And that's OK. We can move on.

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Post by Brooksider »

All I have to say about religion is most people are what their parents are and are the religion they were raised in. I bet if you were raised a Muslim and your parents were Muslim you'd be Muslim Dan. Not many people see a need to change faiths. I know I'm a christian only because I was raised in the Methodist church where my parents belonged.
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Post by mean »

There's probably only one God, and he accepts all religions, but frowns upon hypocrites.
Possible but unlikely. It seems more likely that there are no gods, and that humans create these fantasies for a wide variety of reasons. Initially to explain Life, the Universe, and Everything, probably, but over the years it's become many things to many people. A security blanket for the insecure, a reassuring warmth in the hearts of the cold and lonely, a moral roadmap for those who need it, not to mention justification for all sorts of terrible acts.

I don't practice any religion, although I have searched for gods. I've prayed to God and Jesus from time to time, I've prayed to Allah and Satan, I've read and reread spiritual and philisophical books from the Bible to the Tao, and the one thing I've found consistent amongst all religions is that they are all false. I always imagined that if there was something, I'd feel it. Maybe it would respond, speaking words into my mind. Or maybe it would just be a tingling shiver on the edge of my consciousness. I never got anything real. I have sometimes gotten "unexplainable" evidence, like a sense of contenment after unloading via prayer, and while I know I could probably convince myself it was real, my sense of intellectual honesty demands that I admit it was internal. I've wanted to believe, but not at the expense of lying to myself.

I don't know what else to try. I've prayed, fasted, and gone to all kinds of churches. I've read about pretty much every major religion. Nothing. I'm not asking for much, just a little guidance. There's so many different religions, which is the right one? How can a guy make a rational choice without a supernatural nudge? Alas, no nudge, and as in so many cases, if there is any doubt, there is no doubt: the obvious rational solution is that gods do not exist.

So pardon me if I can't help but think that Christians (and everyone else) have tricked themselves into believing something that is clearly not true. One thing is certain, your brain is capable of making you feel all sorts of things...even god.
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Post by StL_Dan »

Brooksider wrote:All I have to say about religion is most people are what their parents are and are the religion they were raised in. I bet if you were raised a Muslim and your parents were Muslim you'd be Muslim Dan. Not many people see a need to change faiths. I know I'm a christian only because I was raised in the Methodist church where my parents belonged.
Brooksider wrote:All I have to say about religion is most people are what their parents are and are the religion they were raised in.
Perhaps.....but certainly, without a doubt, NOT all. I can point to many many examples of this just in my circle of influence....and I'm just an ordinary, average, everyday kinda guy.

Brooksider wrote:I know I'm a christian only because I was raised in the Methodist church where my parents belonged.
There must come a point in time when a Christian accepts Christ because he/she wants to have a personal relationship with Him. Nobody can become a Christian or enter heaven just because mom and dad or their favorite uncle attends a particular church. We cannot ride someone else's coattails into God's presence.
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Post by StL_Dan »

mean wrote:
There's probably only one God, and he accepts all religions, but frowns upon hypocrites.
Possible but unlikely. It seems more likely that there are no gods, and that humans create these fantasies for a wide variety of reasons. Initially to explain Life, the Universe, and Everything, probably, but over the years it's become many things to many people. A security blanket for the insecure, a reassuring warmth in the hearts of the cold and lonely, a moral roadmap for those who need it, not to mention justification for all sorts of terrible acts.

I don't practice any religion, although I have searched for gods. I've prayed to God and Jesus from time to time, I've prayed to Allah and Satan, I've read and reread spiritual and philisophical books from the Bible to the Tao, and the one thing I've found consistent amongst all religions is that they are all false. I always imagined that if there was something, I'd feel it. Maybe it would respond, speaking words into my mind. Or maybe it would just be a tingling shiver on the edge of my consciousness. I never got anything real. I have sometimes gotten "unexplainable" evidence, like a sense of contenment after unloading via prayer, and while I know I could probably convince myself it was real, my sense of intellectual honesty demands that I admit it was internal. I've wanted to believe, but not at the expense of lying to myself.

I don't know what else to try. I've prayed, fasted, and gone to all kinds of churches. I've read about pretty much every major religion. Nothing. I'm not asking for much, just a little guidance. There's so many different religions, which is the right one? How can a guy make a rational choice without a supernatural nudge? Alas, no nudge, and as in so many cases, if there is any doubt, there is no doubt: the obvious rational solution is that gods do not exist.

So pardon me if I can't help but think that Christians (and everyone else) have tricked themselves into believing something that is clearly not true. One thing is certain, your brain is capable of making you feel all sorts of things...even god.
Thanks for your honesty, mean. I sincerely hope you continue your search and eventually accept Christ as the Lord of your life.
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Post by chrizow »

to mean:

you sound like a good candidate for buddhism, specifically zen buddhism. if you havent checked it out already, read "buddhism: plain and simple" by steve hagen. it's very enlightening, clear, concise, and sort of lays it all out.

if you haven't checked out that book, or something like it, allow me to dispel any sort of preconceived notion you might have about buddhism: it's not really a religion, true buddhists don't "worship" anything, it's just taking the world and yourself for what they are with no frills and no bedtime stories. "guidance" comes through the realization that there is no "guidance" to be had.

i'd recommend it to anyone curious about buddhism actually. pure buddhism has nothing to do with idols, statues, incense, or anything like that.

my $.02!
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Post by StL_Dan »

chrizow wrote:to mean:

you sound like a good candidate for buddhism, specifically zen buddhism. if you havent checked it out already, read "buddhism: plain and simple" by steve hagen. it's very enlightening, clear, concise, and sort of lays it all out.

if you haven't checked out that book, or something like it, allow me to dispel any sort of preconceived notion you might have about buddhism: it's not really a religion, true buddhists don't "worship" anything, it's just taking the world and yourself for what they are with no frills and no bedtime stories. "guidance" comes through the realization that there is no "guidance" to be had.

i'd recommend it to anyone curious about buddhism actually. pure buddhism has nothing to do with idols, statues, incense, or anything like that.

my $.02!
a.k.a. Humanism???
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Post by chrizow »

no, no "ism" at all, really. "buddhism" is just a convenient label. humanism would imply some sort of particular reverence, possibly even worship, or at least emphasis on human affairs or whatever, which is missing the point.

to revere, worship, or otherwise put anything on some sort of pedestal involves, well, putting something on a pedestal, which is contrary to both buddhism and (as far as humans can tell) contrary to the world as it is. to do this necessarily incorporates one or another kind of human construction or framework generated to "package" the world in a certain way.

maybe think of it in terms of existentialist thought: the world, by its nature, has no moral aspects or content. likewise, there is no possible way that a human repackaging of the world is anything other than fiction.

so, we try to see the world for what it is, appreciate and love what is there for its (so far as we can tell) innate qualities. buddhism is an attempt not to ADD another framework to the world, but to in fact strip it of all the fictions humans have imposed on it, and live accordingly every day (no easy task). this does NOT involve becoming a hermit or anything else, contrary to stereotype, but involves an awareness of our tendency to package things in this way and try to let those urges fade and see things as they are.

i know this makes no sense, which is why i recommend the book. so much of what we try to live by is inarticulable, which is exactly the point. to articulate something in itself is an attempt to package it according to our understanding, which cannot help but miss the mark. the book does a good job of describing it as best as it can be expected.

basically, we strive for as pure of an existence as possible - "pure" meaning "as close to the world as it is" as is possible with the human intellect. this means not resorting to stories or comforting thoughts about a warm loving deity up there, or (a la ancient greece) a cast of mean/loving gods ready to punish/reward us or the like (including atheism). i guess we just strive to perceive things as they are, the unity in all things, and not disrupt too much with our inferior intellects.

i wont bore the list with this anymore. if anyone wants to discuss, email me at cmhc9f@mizzou.edu and to Mean and anyone else interested i recommend that book, among others...
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Post by QueSi2Opie »

I have a Buddhist at my work, wonderful person.

I believe in a higher deity, a supreme being, a creator, a god or whatever we choose to call him/her/it. I jus' don't believe in religion, and I definitely don't believe in a Hell where we burn for eternity for our unforgiven sins.

No one can really explain life or how it began, not a religion, not a scientist can explain the beginning of everything! I don't completely doubt anything, and if someone said they saw a big foot, a UFO, a ghost, I'd say,"I wouldn't doubt it."

Maybe our after-life is whatever we believe it to be? Maybe that energy in our body which is our "soul" or "spirit" carries our brain waves after our bodies die. These brain waves will then put us in the unconcious dream state of what we believe heaven (or hell) is. If we don't really believe in anything unconciously, we remain a force that roams the Earth, like a ghost for instance.

I guess we'll all find out someday.
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Post by FangKC »

I think that all religions have their validity, and share more in common than we'd like to admit. In the end, I don't think it will make one lick of difference whether one is a Christian, Jew, Bhuddist, Hindu, Muslim, or anything else. God doesn't separate humans by belief systems--only humans do that. I think God only evaluates us by the amount of love in our hearts.

God could very well use this as a litmus test: Did you appreciate the life I gave you, did you use it well? Did you evolve throughout your journey? Did you utilize your free will to improve your soul? Did you help others, and share your insights in a way that made their journey easier? If you did those things, I am proud of you and accept you back into my kingdom. The fact that you made an effort to become a better soul is the best kind of worship of me, your God. You didn't allow sins like hate, greed, coveting what others had, lust, gluttony, etc., to impede your evolution as a soul. Sins are obstacles to your evolution in that they divert your attention away from the point of existence--evolution of your soul. Sin is regression, not progression.

Jesus is referred to as the "son of God." However, I think that we all are sons of God. I think Mohammed, Bhudda, Moses, are sons of God. They all were inspired prophets of God. I don't think God favored any one of them over another. I think each was sent to bring light to the world at different times and places, since no human prophet could reach all the world. They were emissaries. This is why I think no religion is right or wrong, or superior to another, as long as they bring light, hope, faith, and understanding to the souls of their followers.

If religion is used for any other purpose than the aforementioned, it is not worthy of God. If religion, or its followers, divide, conquer, judge, hate, kill, compare, or subjugate men from each other, then it is sinful. No religion or belief that does these things can be of God. Those that do are evil, or to put it another way, they are negative and regressive, and only move man away from God. Evil is negative; evil is regression, or lack of progress. One can say this the work of Satan, the archetype humans use to illustrate the negative consequences of sin, and how sin causes regression, and impedes progress as a soul.

I think God looks upon those who point out the sins of others, and devote energy to chastising others, as sinful. Expediture of energy for the purpose of judgement is arrogant. To do so is to make the mistake of measuring sin in increments. Keeping this type of score is not worthy of God. Man is not in the position to judge; that is reserved for God. Measuring or comparing another's sin (or regression) diverts attention from the understanding of your own sin, and only serves to distract and slow down your evolution as a soul. No man can evaluate or judge the pace of another's journey.

Jesus was a prophet of God, not because he was more special than any of us per se, but because he demonstrated to the rest of us a perfect life, or how one should approach a perfect existence and evolve as a soul so that God would embrace us, and bring us back into his kingdom.

The fact that there is disharmony among human religions only demonstrates that this is not a perfect world, and that man can be fallible and ignorant. The fact that one person, or religion, would say they are the preferred religion, or denounce others spiritual beliefs, only illustrates the fact that they are adhering to human constructs of vanity, ego, and arrogance, which are sins themselves. God doesn't not participate or encourage these types of constructs that separate humans from each other in this manner. We are all brothers in his eyes.

Man has created artificial constructs used to separate and persecute ourselves from others. The fact that man sets up these boundaries, or what I would term barriers, only demonstrates the misunderstanding of the spirit. Instead of learning from, and helping each other, we wage war and argue about who's more righteous, or just plain right.

The light of God can exist in a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Bhuddist, or even an agnostic. Subsequently, evil can exist in followers of each of these belief systems. The label is not what defines a child of God, but the intent. The framework for how a soul (religion) evolves is not as important as the process of evolution and the current state of one's soul.

I think the entire purpose of being human is to evolve as a soul. If we do this, then we are accepted back into God's kingdom because we have demonstrated that we can change, and work towards perfecting ourselves and emulating God, who is the source of life and spirit. One cannot say that we accomplish this in one lifetime or incarnation; existence may take many forms. Just as a child cannot learn algebra before he learns simple math, evolution is a process of growth in stages. One cannot suppose either than an Earthly existence is the only form of spirit one will take in this journey. God being perfect knows that we are not, and thus can only give us chapters of the ultimate story piecemeal. We cannot know the other forms of spirit or existence, since that would detract from the chapter we are dedicated to now. Like school, a soul must overcome negative attributes and obstacle before one can progress to the next stage of existence. Call it God's plan if you like.

There is nothing wrong with saying that you believe in the tenets of Christ, and that you follow his example. Nor is there anything wrong with following the tenets of Bhuddism or Islam. What is wrong though is when you demonstrate stubborness by insisting that your belief system is superior to anothers. God doesn't insist that all people become Christians or believe that Jesus is the only way into God's grace. I don't believe that God wants man to spend time trying to convert others to his religion or belief system. I think what God wants us to do is to stop worrying so much about another's journey, and pay more attention and effort on our own.

Doctrines of religion are constructs of man. The Bible or the Koran are interpretations of inspired belief and practice. Because they are communicated by man, and recorded into text by man, doesn't imply that they are perfect. Man is fallible and his ability to communicate is as well. View these texts not literally, but read them for their intent and apply their messages to your own progress as a soul. Every human has his own language and voice. Words have different meanings depending on culture and experience. Depending on your level of discipline, meanings can be fluid.

"Thou Shalt Not Steal" can mean different things to different levels or stages of souls evolution. Is a hungry man as guilty of theft if he takes a pound of grain to feed his children, as is the rich, well-fed man who takes the last pound of grain for profit, and causes the other man to become hungry, and have to resort to theft? Which is the greater sin? Is the rich man more sinful in that he hoarded food, and refused to share his bounty with the hungry man, which resulted in the hungry man having to resort to theft?

I don't believe there is any given moment when we have understanding, or find the presence of God after finding the right religion or belief system. Trying a bunch of different belief systems is not the point. There is no "Ok, I feel God moment." It is a process and an evolution. There is no light from above that shines on our head and we get it. We all have it in us already. It's our inner voice that guides us, and if we open ourselves up to this voice, it directs us inately back to God. It's like an inner directional system that moves us forward if we are willing to sit still and listen. Call it the "flow of life." To put it more simply, it's the same principle that Canadian geese, and birds and fish in general, use to migrate to where they need to go. A built-in honing device. Some call it faith, conscience, or one's inner voice. Those people who refuse to believe God, or spirit, exists will probably never find it. However, that said, it's more about the journey than possessing a human-devised map to the destination.

I think God wants us to know that it's not what car we drive, or route we take as much as it's having a sense of direction with the ultimate goal of arriving home.

That's my take anyway. :D
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Post by QueSi2Opie »

My Christian friend invited me to see the Tribulation Christmas Concert (http://www.tribulationchristmas.com/) at the Sheffield Family Life Center (http://www.sheffieldfamilylifecenter.org/) on 5700 Winner Road in KCMO.

Supposedly this Broadway/Branson-style concert/production changes people's lives, however, I found it to be completely offensive (and I won't spoil it for you people by telling you how). It's a 21st Century Christmas play which provides an apocalyptic peek into the future and casts talented amateur actors, gospel singers, ballet dancers, huge choir and features some great costumes, make-up, pyrotechnics and the works. Where else can you find the United Nations Military, the Third Anti-Christ, a group of Christians on the run, and both God and Satan under one roof?

I definitely think Dan and Devin would absolutely love this concert, but I also think I'm definitely less of a Christian now than before. I'm not down with psychological tactics used to frighten me into becoming a Christian.

Anyhow, I believe tommorrow is the last day of the concert and tickets can be purchased at both the church and at Ticketmaster for only $5 bucks.

I'll end with this quote...
To be a Christian, you must believe that evil is good. A God who murders and tortures people is evil. A God that runs a supernatural concentration camp is evil. A God that demands worship on pain of eternal punishment is worse than every human dictator who ever stood at a podium to watch his troops march by.
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Post by phxcat »

I can only imagine what that must have been like, with a name like tribiulation Christmas. As a Christian, I am offended by things like that, the idea that the only way to make converts is to scare them into it. The concept of the tribulation to me is kind of anti-Christian- there are people looking forward to the day that God comes down and kicks the ass of everyone who is having fun at the expense of us Christians. We should not be thinking that way. We should be Christians because it is truth, not because if we don't we'll be in trouble. I tried to read Left Behind once because I found it lying around. That book is unreadable, and the movie is worse. I mean it is just poorly written- never mind the anti-Catholic undertones. I can't imagine that people are actually converted by that type of thing, and I can't ingaine that those conversions will last.

Give Dan some credit! I have never met him, but from what I have seen of him here, I seriously doubt he goes into all of that.
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Post by QueSi2Opie »

Most Christians love this concert because if you believe everything the Bible tells us, including prophecies, than the events portrayed in Tribulation Christmas will eventually come true. The church is also one of the most racially diverse churches I've ever attended.
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Post by tat2kc »

The Tribulation chistmas show is a joke for sure. I'm a Christian and gay, so I must send those folks through the ceiling!

And to defend Dan, even though he may disagree with my "lifestyle", he's is definately respectful of our differences. Too bad more "Christians" are not like him!
Are you sure we're talking about the same God here, because yours sounds kind of like a dick.
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Post by QueSi2Opie »

tat2kc wrote:And to defend Dan, even though he may disagree with my "lifestyle", he's is definately respectful of our differences. Too bad more "Christians" are not like him!
Many claim to be respectful, and they probably sincerely are, but they still think you're goin' to burn in eternal hell fire because the Bible tells them so.
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Post by tat2kc »

Well at least i'll have good company!
Are you sure we're talking about the same God here, because yours sounds kind of like a dick.
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Post by DiggityDawg »

"Give me the Satan worshipping family down the street...you know, the ones with the good albums."

- Bill Hicks
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Religious Zealots Bringing on the Apocalypse

Post by FangKC »

My concern has always been that misguided religious zealots will cause the Apocalypse to occur not because it is God's plan, but because religious fanatics of many faiths believe it must. In fact, when you watch Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, and compare them to the radical Islamic clerics, it appears that all of them are hellbent on it becoming a reality.

It's more a self-fulfilling prophecy than a true prophetic vision set down in religious texts.

It will certainly be ironic if after the foretold Rapture and Apocalypse occur--and the world comes to an end, that the ones that God will save will be those of us who tried to stop the religious fanatics from fighting (from all sides), and banish to hell those people who used their religious beliefs to destroy the world in pursuit of their salvation.

I sometimes think the "thousand years of peace" will come only after all these fundamentalist religious crazies have killed each other off, and the rest of us (or whomever is left) can finally live in peace.
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