Downtown Baseball Stadium

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 5:17 pm

If and when a downtown stadium is built, there must be a ban on ANY new parking lots in the downtown area. From what I understand, Crown Center has the capacity for the parking, as would the miles of street parking and lots in the Crossroads.

I still like the Washingon Square Park location because it means A LOT. It means those who want the streetlife and atmosphere...have it in the Crossroads area. Those who want to get in and get out...have it in The Link and parking decks of Crown Center.

Post by **bahua** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 5:22 pm

I will definitely admit that Crown Center has adequate parking, but it's it mostly occupied during the day?

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 5:31 pm

bahua wrote:I will definitely admit that Crown Center has adequate parking, but it's it mostly occupied during the day?

I guess Crown Center would just have to break out the cranes sooner for the proposed offices and parking on the south end of the development.

Wouldn't Crown Center love to have an average of 20,000+ Royals fans milling around their complex anyway? They could sell them Royals parking passes for the games in addition to making their retail, office, and housing space all the more attractive to tenants. If the Royals bring in 1.8 million fans per year...think of what that means to Crown Center.

Post by **bahua** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 5:40 pm

They could make a crapload of money off parking, if they got the opportunity.

aknowledgeableperson · Fri Apr 09, 2004 11:26 pm

Just to throw some realism into the discussion here are some comments on the parking.
A crowd of 25,000 will generate around 8,000 to 10,000 cars. And that does not count the people working in the stadium (concession workers, ticket takers, ticket sellers, ushers, and so on). Don't believe Crown Center or the surrounding area has that many spaces.
The cost per space in a parking garage is between $10,000 and $13,000. That is if you go up. To go down it becomes more expensive. That is why street level parking is so popular - it is cheaper to build and maintain.

Food for thought.

GRID · Post by **GRID** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 11:43 pm

You have to be kidding me, Crown Center's massive underground garage alone has thousands of spaces. Then you have several other Crown Center garages like the one behind the shops and, the new one for 2555 Grand (I think that is a 2500 space garage alone), the Hallmark ones next to 2555 Grand, the one next to the Hyatt, the new one at the Crown Center convention center, the one under the Westin, the surface lots (which will become garages later) north of 2555, the one under the IBM tower, the massive lot between Main and Grand south of the tracks, the even more massive lot east of McGee north of the tracks, the Blue Cross garage, the One Pershing Sq garage, the Union Station garage, the new Union Station garage (will have 3k alone), the new Pershing Building garage, there has to be more in the area as well. Not to mention the all the street parking in the area.

I work there and big events like the St. Pats day parade which bring tens of thousands to Crown Center and Downtown during business hours barely fills up the most popular garages in the area.

Crown Center has PLENTY of parking.

aknowledgeableperson · Sat Apr 10, 2004 12:16 am

Without knowing the exact location being proposed some of your listed parking may not be available. The surface lot between Main and Grand would be gone because of the stadium. The Crown Center Convention Garage would not be available if there is an event there. The ones at 2555 Grand is stretching it because of the distance to the stadium. I have been in the Crown Center shops garage sometimes at night and very few spaces were available (without a game). The others I cannot say much about except that if there are 2,000 cars in a garage leaving at the same time there will be a traffic jam.
One reason people like the surface parking at the sports complex is they do not have to drive around and around looking for a parking spot. And that is important especially for the Royals since they depend on many people attending from out-state and out-of-state. And there are many buses and motor homes parked outside of the stadium.
There is still alot of convincing that has to be done for me and others to sell us on the Royals leaving their current home for this dream. And I think Glass is the main one (and the important one) that has to be convinced. Especially if you take $4,000,000 out of his pocket for lost parking revenues he currently receives.
And if Bistate II actually goes to the polls in November it better be quick to convince the nonbelievers.

GRID · Post by **GRID** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 12:54 am

I understand your reasoning, I really do. Sometimes I wonder myself if KC would support a downtown stadium for many of the reasons you listed. People like the ballpark next to the freeway, they like not having to find a place to park etc.

But, I keep thinking, why wouldn't KC change a little and become more of an urban town? I know I an others on this forum are minorities in KC when it comes to this type of stuff, but everytime I go to another city and experience a downtown stadium I just image KC doing the same.

For example, the distance from Washington Sq Park to the new garage next to 2555 Grand is the same or less than how far you would walk to Kauffman from the lots in an average attendence game. That is not that far of a walk at all. Ever parked for a game at Coors field? I have seen a half dozen games there and have never parked closer than 10 blocks from the stadium.

Sum it up for me, what do you support? What do you want to happen? Nothing at all?, 200 million into Kauffman?, 400 million into Downtown etc?

For once, I just want KC to do it right the first time and I just don't get putting 200 million into Kauffman. I will do it to keep the Royals from leaving or going to KS (which would be the same thing in my mind), but I guarantee we will regret it big time in ten years.

paisstat · Post by **paisstat** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:23 pm

It seems like Crown Center officials would be interested in making this happen. One would think they would be willing to pay for a portion of "Hall Park."

Post by **bahua** » Sat Apr 10, 2004 11:56 pm

I think so too. I think they'd see it as a golden opportunity.

tat2kc · Post by **tat2kc** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 11:06 am

Spirit Fest and similar festivals at Liberty Memorial brought many people down to the area. It was crowded, but not a complete gridlock. I'd be against building additonal parking for many thousands of people. I mean the entire goal of a downtown ballpark is to bring people downtown. I say make em walk 3,4, or 5 blocks. Why not stroll past restaurants, clubs, galleries and coffee shops?

LyRiCaL GanGsTa · Post by **LyRiCaL GanGsTa** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 1:12 pm

One reason people like the surface parking at the sports complex is they do not have to drive around and around looking for a parking spot. And that is important especially for the Royals since they depend on many people attending from out-state and out-of-state. And there are many buses and motor homes parked outside of the stadium.

AKP I agree with this comment but that is a mentality that we have to change, and we must change if a downtown stadium is built. The whole idea to have a downtown stadium is to create an overall experience, or what we don't have now. Sure, now people come to Kaufmann a 1/2 hour before the game and just want to park and go in because there is nothing else to do. Same thing with after the game, they are on the highway or at Taco Bell and the experience is over....

With a stadium downtown, people will hopefully want to come early for the neighborhood experience, take in the sites, sounds, smells, architecture and atmosphere - in that case walking a few blocks becomes an experience, not just being herded across concrete. There needs to be an understanding and getting the big picture, baseball downtown will be 1000 times better than baseball on a huge concrete parking lot with nothing else to do. Union Station, Crown Center, Crosstown Arts District, KCLive! and hundreds of bars and restaurants are within a few blocks. people can stay at the tons of gorgeous hotel rooms across the street from the new stadium, those hotels benefit and those out-of-town fans get great rooms, without having to drive & park. Not to mention, if we build downtown, there will be a small army of 20 somethings that want to move and live downtown near the new stadium, the place will take off. Hopefully a few thousand people would be able to walk or short-bus to the stadium and not even have to park. 5 yrs after the stadium is built light rail would make perfect sense and maybe a few thousand more would not have to park then.

Spirit Fest and similar festivals at Liberty Memorial brought many people down to the area. It was crowded, but not a complete gridlock. I'd be against building additonal parking for many thousands of people. I mean the entire goal of a downtown ballpark is to bring people downtown. I say make em walk 3,4, or 5 blocks. Why not stroll past restaurants, clubs, galleries and coffee shops?

Good point, Spirit Fest managed 40k vehicles per day in the same vicinity, surely that area can handle 10K cars on average easy. I still think they could build a small 1000 car lot in the area behind The Western Auto building, and on the south side of Crown Center ( one would think CC would be all over building a huge parking facility on the south side where all that vacant land is and have 20k fans walk through Crown Center 3 blocks to the baseball park)

LyRiCaL GanGsTa · Post by **LyRiCaL GanGsTa** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 1:56 pm

On opening day Royals announcer Denny Mathews said this about the stadium, the weather and the fans thirty seconds before the first pitch, ..." I can't imagine a better site than this anywhere in baseball."

The thought ran through my mind of a downtown stadium and 40,000 people in what used to be under-used Washington Park. A sea of blue with thousands more looking out thier loft, desk and hotel windows on Hallmark Stadium as the national anthem plays. Outside the stadium on Pershing, Grand and Main hundreds of people are milling about, soaking in the neighborhood atmosphere, street musicians... hot dog & BBQ stands... suits and ties running late to the park... as a light-rail train passes the stadium. Three 30 story cranes stretch toward the sky... topping off a new hotel at Union Station which now also has a world class casino and two new residential high-rises, Crosstown Place and Royal Towers. After the Royals win thier home opener thousands walk 5 blocks north to KCLive! and The Final Four Championship game at The new Sprint Center Arena where the MU Tigers will face the KU JHawks.

phxcat · Post by **phxcat** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 4:15 pm

Nice Che- but you need to edit the last line- as nice as it would be, the NCAA is too greedy to let an arena land the Final Four, Missouri will never go to the Final Four anyway, and the thought of KU being there makes any right minded person PUKE!

I was just thinking, reading about the affect on CC, think about the effect on the Crossroads! All the galleries, etc. with a sea of people wandering around 81 days a year- I know that they don't have a lot of money, but you would think there could be some kind of neighborhood organizational investment. As for parking, screw the parking- we have busses! Part of the downtown stadium concept needs to be changing people's attitudes- and if we only build with the idea presupposition that we will build convenient parking lots/garages with it, then all we will have is a suburban stadium in the city. People will go because they like the product. As long as there are amenities for the handicapped, if people needto walk a little bit, or take a bus, they will do it. I really don't think it would hurt attendence. People will complain, but they will go.

aknowledgeableperson · Sun Apr 11, 2004 11:08 pm

The decisions made 33 to 35 years ago about building Kemper and the Sports complex where they currently are were not the best. But given that bonds used to build Kemper were passed for the benefit of the American Royal and the AR already had an investment in the West Bottoms which was needed to support their show; and the land for TWO stadiums was not available downtown (primarily cost); the decisions made were correct. If not built where they are now they may not have been built at all. We all make decisions based on the best information we have at the time and later have second thoughts about the decisions because of information that comes later. Even the decision for the downtown highway loop made 50 years ago was wrong since that made downtown an island.
But look at these decisions this way. The downtown loop gives us easy access to downtown from any direction. An arena was built close to downtown instead of Overland Park south of 435. And many multiuse stadiums (for football and baseball) built before the Sports Complex and after are being demolished (the Kingdom in Seattle for one is no more and the debt will not be paid off for another 10 years if I remember correctly). So we need to make the best of the decisions already made.
Do we spend $40 to $80 million to make Kemper better or spend $250 million to build a new arena?
Do we spend $180 million to improve Royals Stadium or $300 million or more for a new stadium.
If we had unlimited money my vote would be for something new. However, money is limited and that limits our options.
I know the paper has had articles that a stadium could be built for less but that is a dream. The Royals will not go for just 25,000 seats - they will want 35,000. And to build by Crown Center what are you going to do with the railroad tracks? Those are very active lines and the land would not be cheap to buy and would not be cheap to relocate the tracks. More than just Amtrack uses those lines. And Crown Center will not be looking for a huge increase in traffic since a night game is over after 10:00 and many of the crowd will be heading directly home for many reasons and besides the shops close at 9:00 if not earlier.
And to build a 18,000 to 20,000 seat arena and do it right will cost $250,000,000 if not more. A few weeks ago the paper had the costs of regional new arenas and the only ones that cost less than $200 mil had 16,000 or fewer seats if my memory serves me well.
Just more food for thought. And good night and sleep tight and don't let the bedbugs bite.

GRID · Post by **GRID** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 11:31 pm

I am having a hell of a time convincing people that a Downtown stadium is what KC and the Royals need long term. I don't think this thing has a chance in hell anymore. I'm ready to throw in the towl and make Kauffman better I suppose. It's better than nothing and loosing the team.

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:00 am

I still think a small renovation to Kauffman and get Glass pushing on a new stadium....do not put $150M into Kauffman....if that means me voting against Bi-State, then so be it.

Post by **staubio** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:08 am

GRID wrote:I am having a hell of a time convincing people that a Downtown stadium is what KC and the Royals need long term. I don't think this thing has a chance in hell anymore. I'm ready to throw in the towl and make Kauffman better I suppose. It's better than nothing and loosing the team.

I disagree. Everyone I've talked to thinks it is a great idea once they have a chance to digest what it means. I was with a load of suburbadroids at lunch the other day and somebody else brought up their advocacy for a downtown stadium -- and everyone thought it sounded like a good idea.

There will be those that oppose the idea, but it is very far from hopeless.

NDgravy · Post by **NDgravy** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:30 am

As someone who is moving to Kansas City in the next year, after I get married, a downtown stadium is a very important selling point. So is the arena for that matter, as I would not mind having NCAA regionals and the Big 12 Tournament in my back yard. That is why I have been trying to talk my father in law and my relatives in JOCO that a downtown stadium is a very important goal for everyone involved, as it shows KC in a better light. I just wanted to support all who support this stadium puch, because I think it is a very significant move towards showing the country what KC has to offer.

LyRiCaL GanGsTa · Post by **LyRiCaL GanGsTa** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 12:41 pm

Are you from North Dakota? My dad lived there and I've been many times.