KCRag Forum

I do see your point and it seems like focusing back to suburban office growth and mixed use is like a knee jerk, over correction to COVID. Not ideal for downtown but the growth is still happening for sure.

Now If there were large scale corporate HQ's downtown then places like Clay County, which is primarily bedroom communities, some corporate presence, would be in a good spot for ppl to live and get to downtown. I live up North and work downtown. Very easy to get to. My family and I like going there to enjoy dining and entertainment often. But maybe we are just built different, who knows? (lol).

Hopefully this high rise project can be picked up by another developer and that other projects continue to push forward. The momentum downtown is still there. IMO the downtown area could be on fire with development, businesses, entertainment, etc. just booming; and large scale suburban mixed use projects would still be going up. There is a market & demographic for that development to appeal to as well as the same for downtown development. Getting more residents downtown has been a very smart play as people drive the needs for amenities, entertainment, and employment. Hopefully it keeps moving forward, even if the pace slows, it should still be steady. And that's not a critique, the "easy" low hanging fruit of development is underway or getting ready. Still some options out there but once that is done that you have to look that the less easy development, which may slow down the pace a bit but it still happening.

If the Royals move downtown, KCMO and others will have invested billions in entertainment and infrastructure improvements downtown. I really don't think there are many examples in the country where so much money has been spent and built to bring back a downtown.

Potential projects
New Royals stadium hopefully
The 670 Park (seems pretty much a done deal)
A redo of Barney Allis Plaza

The Streetcar
The new Current stadium
T-Mobil Arena
College BB Experience
The entire P&L District including the Midland and Main street theaters
Bartle Hall Ballroom expansion
Kauffman Center
Downtown Library
Union Station and Science City
Liberty Memorial and WW1 Museum
18th and Vine District museums
Berkley Park rebirth and development
Kemper Arena being repurposed
New Bond Bridge
The recreation bridge over the KS river
New Broadway Bridge (although I believe a huge miss with how it was designed)
Federal investment such as the new Federal Reserve and IRS, reno of the main federal buildings and all the continued federal leases in private buildings downtown. If it were not for the federal gov, Downtown KC would be in real bad shape. There are so few private jobs there.

I'm sure I'm missing stuff. Most of downtown's vacant buildings have been restored and there is some new construction (mostly some new five over ones), but outside of the Light Towers, new construction of substantial buildings is relatively non existent.

What will it take? You already have the arena, the P&L district, the Kauffman Center as major anchors that should have spurred more private development around them by now. I sometimes really wonder if a baseball stadium will be more of the same. Especially now that private development seems to be shifting back to the suburbs.

What is it going to take to get the KC development community and the national development community to take downtown KC seriously and start building there? I mean actual developers coming in and building office/hotel/residential projects without needing massive amounts of incentives (ie light towers).

Is there a problem with incomes in KC?

If some of these projects get going in JoCo, you are going to start seeing high rise residential going up out there and that will eat up a huge part of the potential market for that type of housing.

I just don't think high-rise residential towers make financial sense in KC. First, rents are not that high compared to cities that are seeing multiple high-rises go up. To justify a high-rise, rents have to be a certain level and we're just barely there and maybe there just isn't enough demand at that rent-level to justify more than one high-rise every couple of years. Or maybe we're not there and the only way they're happening is Cordish's old incentives that won't happen today.

But, more importantly, why? Why build a high-rise as opposed to something shorter/cheaper/easier? There are acres of developable land all over downtown. Why go the Three Light route when a developer can go the Arte KC or City Club route? Plus, the River Market and Crossroads are higher demand neighborhoods than the loop and there are height limitations in both of those neighborhoods.

Office is not happening anytime soon, if ever. I can't imagine a hotel justifying a high-rise on its own, would have to be paired with residential, so then just go back to the start of my post as to why that's unlikely to happen.

A major problem holding our city back are the schools. I know lots of urban-minded people who love the city but end up thinking they have to move to Clay County or KS because of the schools.

The other issue is crime and more importantly, the perception crime. I almost never see police in the city unless I'm near a QT or a police station.

It's too bad about the schools because our city has a lot going for it. Because it lacks density, living in the city is way more convenient than the suburbs. There is less traffic. The architecture is more inspiring. The houses are way more attractive. (our city is pretty blessed with a beautiful housing stock).

The bad schools are killing us. People start to think differently when they have kids. We need to figure out how to have descent public schools.

I thought 3 light was commanding downtown LA -level prices? Per the 3 light thread.
A residential/mixed use skyscraper in downtown KC would probably kill it, we just have a breed of developers in this city that are roughly 40 years behind the present and won’t test the waters until they’ve had a dozen experiments conducted to prove that the temperature is fine

TheLastGentleman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:04 pm I thought 3 light was commanding downtown LA -level prices? Per the 3 light thread.
A residential/mixed use skyscraper in downtown KC would probably kill it, we just have a breed of developers in this city that are roughly 40 years behind the present and won’t test the waters until they’ve had a dozen experiments conducted to prove that the temperature is fine

I think the person who posted that was quickly ripped apart. Size of market is also pretty important. KC luxury market is pretty think compared to a city with 10x GDP size.

And few other peer cities have a CCPlaza district that has been the preferred choice for upper bracket high rise residential for a century.

moderne wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:27 pm And few other peer cities have a CCPlaza district that has been the preferred choice for upper bracket high rise residential for a century.

High-rise residential has pretty much stopped on the plaza though. I think one building has gone up since the last boom there in the 80s. Actually two have gone up. The Kirkwood and 4646 Broadway. Both around 12 floors. There have not even been many proposals since those went up and the ones that have been proposed can't get off the ground. Most of the residential highrises in the Plaza area went up in the 20s and 30's. There was a nice boom in the 80's of hotel and office and a few more residential. The plaza has slowed down quite a bit though.

Reality is KC builds very few 12 plus story buildings anywhere in the city. I'm fine with infill of five over ones, but wish those would be more on the outskirts of downtown and the plaza with taller buildings in the downtown plaza cores. But even the 5 over ones seem to drying up with few proposals in the works.

Maybe things will ramp back up again in 2024.

GRID wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:38 pm

moderne wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:27 pm And few other peer cities have a CCPlaza district that has been the preferred choice for upper bracket high rise residential for a century.

High-rise residential has pretty much stopped on the plaza though. I think one building has gone up since the last boom there in the 80s. Actually two have gone up. The Kirkwood and 4646 Broadway. Both around 12 floors. There have not even been many proposals since those went up and the ones that have been proposed can't get off the ground.

Reality is KC builds very few 12 plus story buildings anywhere in the city. I'm fine with infill of five over ones, but wish those would be more on the outskirts of downtown and the plaza with taller buildings in the downtown plaza cores. But even the 5 over ones seem to drying up with few proposals in the works.

Maybe things will ramp back up again in 2024.

that still doesn't detract from the fact that few peer cities have a CCPlaza to his point.

So because KC has the plaza, development across the city can be low? Not sure I get the point. St Louis has Clayton and CWE, Denver has Cherry Creek.

Back in the 80's and even 90s there were probably 15-20 towers proposed for the plaza even if only some were built. Now there is very little proposed and even less actually built.

My point is the plaza has become far less relevant to why Downtown has not gone to the next level of higher density new construction. I mean the Plaza was a primary reason very little high rise residential happened downtown in the 70s-80s-90s. But I don't think the plaza is a reason downtown is not seeing more or larger scale residential projects today.

That's my point.

I think it has come down to rents vs income in KC are just not there and have probably only gotten worse. Incomes are not high enough to justify high rise towers like you seen in many other cities and those with money prefer places like Leawood or Overland Park which is where the high income private sector white collar jobs are.

My point with all this is not that KC is doing bad, it's that it seems like KC has already peaked with what it can build. A 15 story light tower every five years. (I say 15 stories because they are 15 story buildings on parking pedestals.)

This is why I wonder what type of development people are really expecting in EV with the new ballpark and why I would like to see real plans for towers near the stadium that will go up along with the stadium. If not, then I don't see much additional development happening with the stadium in a reasonable timeline outside a five over one or two and maybe some ground floor bar and restaurant retail.

The Royals need to put together some developers and financing to make sure something "substantial" gets built with the stadium or people will still be talking about developing all the remaining empty lots around the stadium in 2045.

It will keep coming back to F500/1000 type companies not having headquarters or major offices in downtown KC. If one or multiple of those companies moved workers to KC, then all of these projects would suddenly become much more viable.

KC_Ari wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 1:05 pm It will keep coming back to F500/1000 type companies not having headquarters or major offices in downtown KC. If one or multiple of those companies moved workers to KC, then all of these projects would suddenly become much more viable.

Totally agree. I think jobs nearby are what are driving most of the towers in other cities. Even post pandemic, getting a major corporation to return to downtown from the suburbs should be a top priority.

It would be nice if the stadium came with such a move. Similar to H&R Block being part of the P&L District (even though they moved from the plaza area and not the suburbs).

GRID wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 1:32 pm

KC_Ari wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 1:05 pm It will keep coming back to F500/1000 type companies not having headquarters or major offices in downtown KC. If one or multiple of those companies moved workers to KC, then all of these projects would suddenly become much more viable.

Totally agree. I think jobs nearby are what are driving most of the towers in other cities. Even post pandemic, getting a major corporation to return to downtown from the suburbs should be a top priority.

It would be nice if the stadium came with such a move. Similar to H&R Block being part of the P&L District (even though they moved from the plaza area and not the suburbs).

KC has a chicken and egg problem. All that would be great but KC also has a residential issue. The apartments and condo's downtown are relatively niche market. Where do you live as an upper middle class family south of the river in KCMO? The schools are a huge impediment. The nicer areas of KCMO south have extremely limited housing supply and gentrification is on such a slow scale that newer family residential remains sparse and patchy. KC really has limited area to accommodate the kind of inner belt housing you see in Denver or Houston; not without massive gentrification and the city seems resistant to any gentrification at all. So you have young people, people who don't have kids and more adventurous empty nesters as your urban market while most white collar families live in KC North and Johnson County.

GRID wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:51 pm
I think it has come down to rents vs income in KC are just not there and have probably only gotten worse. Incomes are not high enough to justify high rise towers like you seen in many other cities

Good. Resolved. KC is done building high rise towers, so let's quit going round and round as to why. This isn't an issue we're going to solve nor one we really care to solve. We can't keep beating this same dead horse for decades.

Not saying any of this to offend Grid or anybody else, it just is something that's not happening and I don't think it's a big priority for it to happen, so why do we on here care? Simply for clout?

You are right KCP. So why even bring the stadium downtown? Especially if you are not going to push for the best plan possible for the area around the stadium. Never really thought you of all people would become so complacent with "things are fine how they are"...It's "KC way" that never seems to go away. I mean nobody there even seems to care how about how bad the area around the stadiums is. It's actually quite bizarre. KC is getting ready to host the World Cup and the area around the stadiums looks like rural Mississippi.

I mean it's just frustrating. Finally build a new airport terminal, but can't pick up tires off the curb on Blue Ridge across from the stadium.

Just always hoping to see KC thrive that's all. I know I just hold the bar way too high I guess. Always have.

Because I think a downtown park is a net add for downtown. As we've all seen and discussed, stadiums aren't some magical development bringer. Whatever builds around the stadium will be the best possible plan that fits KC. I'm not saying things are fine how they are but me posting over and over about why we can't get a 40 story res tower isn't doing anything, it's obvious the market here isn't right for that type of development at this point and nobody in leadership is driving for that to be a thing. Doesn't mean something is wrong with KC, it's just not in the cards at this point. Nothing wrong with it.

I'm in no way complacent but pinning "better" just on vertical towers is a losing battle here.

For the record, I never mentioned a 40 story tower. There is pretty much no chance a building that high will go up in KC and I would take two 20 story buildings over one 40 story building.

But midrises don't come often either and my point was that is really seems like KC has already hit the saturation point of how much it can build and how many people are willing to pay more to commute in a car from the city to suburban jobs or how many are willing to put up with bad schools, crime etc.

It's an ongoing discussion that I guess will never end I guess as to when and if KC will ever recover from the effects of sprawl and what the state line did to its economy.

Maybe I think that the more people discuss it, the more of a chance a company or two decides to move back into the city. Maybe it is best to just be fine with how it is, but I guess it's just not in me to do that.

I mean people are more excited about a giant gas station coming to Noland Road and I-70 than all the stuff I talk about. Yet here I am, still doing my thing lol.

Urban KC is missing that corporate pride piece of the puzzle to help fill in the gaps where the city government can't do it all.
I have always dreaded the day if Hallmark were to no longer be able to care for Crown Center and you can already see issues with Hallmark's general decline with the state of the big hotels there. Hallmark has been amazing for downtown, but you have to wonder if they will be large enough to maintain crown center much longer.

Everybody there should be constantly bringing up the fact that the corporate community abandoned downtown KC and has yet to return. Maybe, just maybe, somebody will listen who has the ability to make a difference.

Preaching to the choir here is the problem lol. Hey you know better than any my desire to have some tall towers. I think I'm just tired of being disappointed so moving my brain to other ways to make KC better as towers ain't it.

Again, it's not just tall towers. I think one of the biggest blunders in recent years is squandering away of that big project at Main and Armour. That would have been a game changer for all of Midtown.

Main Street should be seeing a lot more projects proposed by now along the streetcar route. I don't care if they are five over ones or 15 story towers.

Something is wrong that more is not happening along Main St. Especially right now while Main is tore up for so many years. Has KCMO become that much of a challenge to build in now? Are developers avoiding urban KCMO? It's it due to how hard it is to get incentives? Low potential rents? The KC tenants people?

These are questions that should be asked. Maybe everything is fine and I'm pushing for too much.