Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Discuss items in the urban core outside of Downtown as described above. Everything in the core including the east side (18th & Vine area), Northeast, Plaza, Westport, Brookside, Valentine, Waldo, 39th street, & the entire midtown area.
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earthling
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling »

MidtownCat wrote:The entire East side of the Plaza is a freaking ghost town. And for the, "I'm sure something cool will go in there crowd" how has the new tenant search for Halls gone thus far? That prime real estate has now sat vacant for what two years now?

It's sad to see what THE premier shopping and dining district in the city has become. A shell of its former self.
I live in Plaza/Westport area and while I hang out in Westport more I'm through Plaza often and the crowds are pretty much as high as they ever have been for time of year. The reason there have been vacancies is partly because of natural rotation (like RH, which Plaza is a very small store for them) but mostly because of the HIghwoods sale. They didn't bring in new tenants due to the sale and apparently stopped renovation of the Halls location when Plaza sold. The new owner is reviewing the current state and who they will pursue. It's just the nature of the transition of ownership and takes time. The new owner hasn't even got started with its plans. Last I heard they plan to not renew leases or at least not pursue tenants that appeal to teens.

Am however not optimistic the new owner will appeal to neighborhood needs as Nichols did when they owned the Plaza. Living on the Plaza before Highwoods took over was like living in a village. Now it's just an outdoor mall and will probably stay that way.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by MidtownCat »

Yeah, like an outdoor mall that has essentially become Town Center Plaza. Sad.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling »

It did back in the late 90's when Highwoods took over. But as far as vacancies lately, it's due to the transition of ownership change and vacancies will likely fill soon enough. Although if new owners are asking for even higher rent, could be a challenge.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by DaveKCMO »

earthling wrote:Last I heard they plan to not renew leases or at least not pursue tenants that appeal to teens.
So that means no more Apple, H&M, Forever 21, or movie theater?
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by missingkc »

The Plaza' s change from neighborhood center started long before Highwwods. The replacement of Sears with Seville Square, the creation of the row of shops across the street for high end retail such as Gucci, the loss of the bowling alley and, I think, a dime store for Saks all predated Highwoods by many years. They were part of a redirection intended to take advantage of KC' s position in the top ten of convention destinations. But, in usual KC style, powers didn't recognize the economic benefit of being a leader in that field and failed to keep pace with the demands of the industry. Bye-bye Gucci, hello H&M. (Same sad tale as the airport. No vision, no information, no ambition, too few smarts.)
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling »

^Highwoods takeover was the major turning point to becoming a mall. When JC Nichols owned it, they partly focused on neighborhood amenities like grocery, drugstore, dry cleaner, barber, etc. It was like living in a village up to the late 90s and neighborhood people got to know each other at bars/restaurants, which I don't see as much anymore.

Highwoods turned its back on the neighborhood, not acknowledging its presence. They turned it into a mall, pursued an office park and tried to get rid of any residential properties - Park Lane, Neptune. They showed no sign of collaborating with the neighborhood, asking what retail/amenities were desired by the area like Nichols did. Nichols pursued mall stores and changed things up too but with a balance. You can't buy a gallon of milk, tylenol, bandaids or toothpaste/brush on the Plaza, even hotel visitors use grocery/drugstores.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by FangKC »

missingkc wrote:The Plaza' s change from neighborhood center started long before Highwwods.

...

They were part of a redirection intended to take advantage of KC' s position in the top ten of convention destinations. But, in usual KC style, powers didn't recognize the economic benefit of being a leader in that field and failed to keep pace with the demands of the industry. Bye-bye Gucci, hello H&M. (Same sad tale as the airport. No vision, no information, no ambition, too few smarts.)
While some blame can be placed on City leadership, there were other reasons Kansas City dropped out of the top tier of convention cities. KC was at its' zenith for conventions in the 1920s-40s, when it was among the top four convention cities. KC had a reputation for being a wide-open city with free-flowing booze all through Prohibition. That was a big draw then--and a very distinct advantage. There was illicit gambling widely available here before Las Vegas became a competing gambling mecca--including a horse racing track in Riverside. There was great entertainment including numerous movie, vaudeville, and burlesque theaters downtown, and were lots of bars, nightclubs, dance halls, jazz, and prostitution basically ignored by law enforcement. The City had a nightclub with totally nude waitresses that served lunch. Downtown had a lot of shopping then as well near the hotels.

The other big advantage then was the fact that KC was the second largest rail center located in the middle of the country in a time when most people traveled by rail. All the big rail lines came through Kansas City. At that time, KC had one of the most extensive streetcar lines in the country. The City had a very active and dynamic downtown. So there were many reasons that KC was among the top convention cities--most among them being that KC was a wild and fun place to visit. Most convention goers at that time were primarily men who sought to have a "good time" out of the sight of their wives, ministers, and friends.

During WWII, the entertainment economy here was quite different as well. KC didn't need conventions per se to support entertainment venues. TV didn't exist, and people went out more often. Radio was big, and KC at the time had a powerful radio station that broadcast live music nationwide from local hotels and venues, which contributed to the allure of the City to people living elsewhere.

The City was teeming with military personnel from nearby bases whose staff took their leave and came here. There were thousands of young, unmarried factory workers who came to the City from rural areas for defense industry jobs. So the City's nightspots were plentiful and busy, and since that industry was so strong it didn't depend on conventions alone, and was stable in and of itself. The fact that there were so many nightclubs, theaters, and bars made KC attractive for conventions--much like New Orleans is today. KC didn't have to be the biggest city to be a top convention town because it had all these tangible attributes--many of which were not available in other bigger cities: booze, gambling, and hookers.

One also has to take into account that Kansas City in the 1920s had more residents than many cities that would later become large convention cities: Houston, Phoenix, San Diego, Miami, Denver, Las Vegas, Columbus, Louisville, Dallas, Austin, Nashville, San Antonio, Atlanta, Ft. Lauderdale, Tampa, and Orlando. Even in 1950, Kansas City had more people than all these cities except for Houston. So the dramatic population shift of other cities after 1960 started to draw attention away from KC.

Probably the two biggest reasons KC began its' decline among convention cites was the end of Prohibition, the advent of air travel, and decline of rail. Planes made it easier for convention goers to travel to other distant cities, and many competitors popped up in warmer climates.

Prohibition and WWII ended, and civic reform resulted in many nightclubs and gambling halls closed. Booze was available everywhere, and in more recent times other cities began offering gambling. By the 1950s, TV became widely-adopted so many entertainment venues like theaters, dance halls, and music venues closed down. The streetcar system was shut down, which made it harder for conventioneers to move about the City. With less business, downtown hotels failed to update, and some closed. Urban renewal also slowly wiped out some of the buildings that housed nightclubs and restaurants downtown. KC didn't place enough value on its' entertainment industry.

KC also did allow its' downtown to become too seedy, and that combined with too many surface parking lots gave the appearance of lack of dynamism and safety. New and shinier cities took business.

While KC might have been slow to update its' convention facilities and hotels, the City also lost many of the aspects that made it attractive to convention attendees. It became harder to get around the City. It became less fun. Keep in mind that in those days a conventioneer could take the streetcar to the zoo, or Electric Park at Paseo and Cleaver Boulevard.

Putting our civic arena in the West Bottoms probably didn't help things either--especially downtown hotels, restaurants, and bars.

New Orleans is a smaller city, but it still has a decent convention business, and one of the reasons for that is because New Orleans maintained their entertainment industry much better. There is good food, music, gambling, architecture, historic attributes, and its' downtown is still reasonably concentrated and walkable.

KC could have updated and expanded its' convention center much sooner, and it still might not have made much of a difference because of all the reasons I've stated.

Many of the top convention cities today are in warm year-round climates, or simply much larger cities near oceans/lakes/bays/mountains with built-in entertainment options.

Much larger cities, that aren't in warmer climates, also usually have one distinct advantage in that they usually have a lot more hotel rooms and mass transit already near their convention halls for business travelers, tourists, and non-convention visitors (New York, Chicago, Boston, Washington DC, San Francisco). Those hotels are less dependent on convention business ups and downs than Kansas City's downtown.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling »

^Indeed. To summarize... In KC's 1920's heyday, it was one of few cities to drink pseudo-legally, people mostly took train at the time and KC was rail hub and the sound of the time was jazz and KC was a major place in country for blues/jazz musicians to get work since KC ignored the prohibition. That drew the conventions. There used to be over 30K hotel rooms between downtown/Plaza (now there are about 35K in metro, yay sprawl).Then downtown died as the burbs took off (yay sprawl) and the awful airport design isn't conducive to being a hub, so far fewer flights and non-stop flights than other cities.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

Nice summary Fang but convention facilities, including hotels, probably play a big part in the decline than you let on. When Bartle Hall first opened in the early 70's it keep KC in the top 10 convention cities. However a lack of funds prohibited the completion of meeting rooms on the north side of 13th and gradually the city's status started slipping. When Bartle's expansion was completed in the first half of the 90's the addition helped but the city's status was still slipping. And additional facilities since then have just keep the city as a second tier location.
Can/should the city try to get back into a first tier location? No. A new ultra modern airport won't do it. A new convention hotel won't do it. A slick, expanded, modern improved mass transit system won't do it. All three together won't do it. The KC Metro being the 27th largest metro in the states probably has to be the greatest drawback to the city returning as a top tier convention town.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by flyingember »

aknowledgeableperson wrote:Nice summary Fang but convention facilities, including hotels, probably play a big part in the decline than you let on. When Bartle Hall first opened in the early 70's it keep KC in the top 10 convention cities. However a lack of funds prohibited the completion of meeting rooms on the north side of 13th and gradually the city's status started slipping. When Bartle's expansion was completed in the first half of the 90's the addition helped but the city's status was still slipping. And additional facilities since then have just keep the city as a second tier location.
Can/should the city try to get back into a first tier location? No. A new ultra modern airport won't do it. A new convention hotel won't do it. A slick, expanded, modern improved mass transit system won't do it. All three together won't do it. The KC Metro being the 27th largest metro in the states probably has to be the greatest drawback to the city returning as a top tier convention town.
The converse is KC can sell itself to certain conventions even if it's not going to draw them all at scale.

There's room to bring any faith or morale business. A quiet Plaza hotel and the shopping and restaurants can pair well with this kind of event needs.

I would argue it needs to start looking towards shops you can't get anywhere else. Another chain clothing store is fine but could also go anywhere else. Look at Briarcliff Village as an example
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by hartliss »

Noticed last week that surveying/drilling equipment was on the triangular parcel of land in front of the Bernstein Rein building.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by hartliss »

Plans for the triangular block to the south of the Bernstein Rein building are on the city's planning site: http://maps.kcmo.org/kcgis/rest/service ... ments/3215
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Eon Blue »

"Uber lounge"
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by KCPowercat »

Is there anyway to be alerted to additions to that map or do you just search it periodically?
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by hartliss »

KCPowercat wrote:Is there anyway to be alerted to additions to that map or do you just search it periodically?
I just search periodically. Admittedly, probably need to actually do some work at my job vs. scouring this map! lol!
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by chingon »

Fencing up at 44th/Washington.

I thought the "neighbors" killed that project?
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by jasty5 »

Anyone have any details or renderings on two projects currently under construction in north plaza? One is some kind of townhouse project at 45th and Summit, and the other is an apartment project at 45th terrace and Broadway.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by KCtoBrooklyn »

jasty5 wrote:Anyone have any details or renderings on two projects currently under construction in north plaza? One is some kind of townhouse project at 45th and Summit
Yes, this will be townhomes - or I think they are saying more of a patio/villa home set up. I haven't seen any renderings or official announcements. If I recall correctly, it will be 16 units.
jasty5 wrote: and the other is an apartment project at 45th terrace and Broadway.
I believe this will be a 31 unit apartment. I feel like there was a rendering out for this one, but I can't seem to find it now. This project during a flurry of activity around the Plaza, including a couple projects being denied, so I feel like it kind of flew under the radar.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by NorthOak »

This thread has a lot of info and projects hodge-poged together - hard to follow.
Shouldn't the Plaza have it's own Forum?
Or at least "Westport/Plaza" with each project having it's own thread.
Just an idea.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by kcjak »

Rendering available in The Star article
http://www.kansascity.com/news/business ... 78049.html
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