OFFICIAL: H&R Block HQ

[im2kull]

First off, tell me what's so "decent" about strolling past a blank wall?

As for the rest of your post, it exudes the defeatist, nonchalant attitude towards good urban design standards so prevalently lacking in this city.

Why don't a few of you try traveling to cities in foreign countries that haven't completely surrendered themselves to the American style vacuum of design failures.

The fact that its on a grade...which makes it fit well...i'd rather have that nice blank limestone pretty wall where artists can set up for a first fridays outdoor effect than a bunch of deli's with weird entryway steps...and the fact that the blank wall is properly positioned to funnel people towards whats truely important...

[ShowMeKC]

Wow I will really have to disagree with your statement im2kull... While the district is important, the are around it, and every street is important. We cannot have one lively area surrounded by dead sidewalks and streets.

[im2kull]

Wow I will really have to disagree with your statement im2kull... While the district is important, the are around it, and every street is important. We cannot have one lively area surrounded by dead sidewalks and streets.

but one dead 200ft section on one half of one street??  Thats not that bad...they way I look at it I see an oppertunity...just look at the block partys they throw in the summer around Bartle...tons of open sidewalk..aka..perfect for having people get together and mingle and streetdance/play instruments/paint/whatever without getting in everyones way and blocking stores on a street with lots of traffic...but thats just my opinion...every city has them

[GRID]

"It's not that bad.."

-Kansas City's excuse for everything in past six decades.

You can force urban design all you want on a city and till you get the corporate community behind you, it's all for nothing.

Downtown KC has been ignored in this town for decades while College Blvd exploded.  Our largest companies have little to no presence down there etc.  There hasn't been any "it's not that bad" downtown.  What happened in our downtown in the past 30 years is no different that what has happened in all downtowns.  We built some office towers that don't interact with the street well.  So freaking what.  Office towers do that in every city.  That's our excuse for having one of nations worst downtowns?  I don't think so.

It has far more to do with two things when combined spelled disaster for KCMO.

KCMO not keeping up infrastructure downtown (sidewalks, bridges, lighting, traffic signals etc) and corporations bolting for KS.

Now, we are slowly getting the sidewalk interaction we want to see.  We can't have it on every street though and I think Block as done far more for downtown than most of the other metro area companies combined.

Now try to redirect your anger toward Quintiles, the next company that will soon bolt KCMO for JoCo and slowly develop a KS bias in everthing from politics to where their employees live and then give a round of applause to Cerner for stepping up and taking the space that Quintiles will vacate in an area of town desparate for major local corporate investment.  Moves like Cerner, Block etc is what this city needs and has not had for three decades.  The damn sidewalk storefronts will follow.

KMBC 9 gets tax breaks to leave downtown under the threat that they will otherwise go to JoCo.

Sad thing is, KC actually won, they at least stayed in KCMO, most of the time, they actually go to JoCo.  Sad.

That's what happened to KC's downtown and it's still happening today.  As I see how involved large companies are in other towns.  Massive towers and major employee centers playing such a huge role in turning around other downtowns, all I can say is thanks Block.  It's about time.

[ShowMeKC]

It isn't extremely bad, but I'm trying to make a point here, just like GRID did.
This is one small stretch of land, but if we had the same mentality and repeated it around Downtown, we would have multiple areas with dead sidewalks and buildings with no street interaction.

And you know what? It's not a city/downtown if the sidewalks don't have a lot of people on them. All you have to do, is increase the width of the sidewalk in areas with high traffic. Also, people going into streets is not that bad either, as long as it doesn't present a large danger.
The playgrounds and stages of the city are it's sidewalks and streets. They are where the most activity does and should occur.

I have to say it wasn't entirely JoCo's fault that companies moved there in the first place. They duplicated themselves way too much in a succesful Downtown. The area became very monotonous and bland. They crowded out the more diverse uses like retail and residential buildings. Eventually, the area lost the success it had. At this same time, Overland Park, and other suburbs were building for these companies, and taking advantage of the problem. These companies are now spread out in the metro area, mainly in DT and OP. It is best to keep similar companies apart. Right now, we are correcting our mistakes, and doing our best to get Downtown to how it used to be.
That means we have to protect against allowing companies to crowd out other companies so they can be successful. We cannot allow Downtown to once again have a true Central Business District, or Government District. If we have buildings dedicated to offices, they should not be full of law offices, or banks, or any other uses. These buildings need to have a variety in their usage. This means mixing the commercial uses. And yes, it also means adding retail and residential to these areas and possibly, even our office buildings.

Right now, Downtown is probably at a great risk of being overcrowded with residential uses. Currently, we have office buildings mixed in with residential buildings and retail buildings. However, we are at risk of developers coming in, buying out the other commercial and retail buildings, and converting them to residential so they can make money... We need to take action and protect the buildings we have now. If a building is currently in use, and is in good shape, it should be protected, along with the use inside of it. We need to start building new, and converting the blighted and dangerous buildings into residential, retail and commercial uses.

Either way... Like I said, I was just making a point. While this blank wall doesn't bother me much. Everyone has to realize, we cannot keep doing this all over Downtown, even if it's every few blocks.

[Tosspot]

Yeah, at least Block chose downtown. Good for them, yes.

but one dead 200ft section on one half of one street??  Thats not that bad...they way I look at it I see an oppertunity...just look at the block partys they throw in the summer around Bartle...tons of open sidewalk..aka..perfect for having people get together and mingle and streetdance/play instruments/paint/whatever without getting in everyones way and blocking stores on a street with lots of traffic...but thats just my opinion...every city has them

Why not just have proper design in the first place, then we won't have to worry about dredging up excuses like this. Your argument is akin to saying parking lots in the crossroads are a good thing because there is the occasional festival tent set up in one of them. And Bartle Hall can get pulverized by a meteorite for all I care.

GRID, all I see in your post is more excuses for sub-par street level aesthetics.

[GRID]

There are blank walls all over denver, mppls, san diego etc.  All over them.  Their arenas and convention facilities are far worse than Bartle and don't even compare to what the sprint center will be like.  But they have so much more of a vibrant downtown that you don't notice it.  Block will be the corner piece of the most sidewalk interaction this town has seen since the 40's and we don't like that fact that there is not a mr goodcents on the side of the theater.

I just don't get it I guess.

[ShowMeKC]

I dunno if that was a reply to me or Toss, but like I said, I was just making a point. It isn't terrible that this specific location is like this. My point is that we cannot keep doing this all over Downtown. We have to think long term, even 20 years from now. Large companies and some developers think short term, more willing to make a lot of money, then move instead of staying in an area, and make more money over a longer period of time.

[KCLover]

On the other side of the wall is the theater right. There can't be a window there...

This wall and building sure beats the hell out of what was there before, a big focking parking lot. Some of you guys are ungreatful, that's all there is to it.

[kcdcchef]

There are blank walls all over denver, mppls, san diego etc.  All over them.  Their arenas and convention facilities are far worse than Bartle and don't even compare to what the sprint center will be like.  But they have so much more of a vibrant downtown that you don't notice it.  Block will be the corner piece of the most sidewalk interaction this town has seen since the 40's and we don't like that fact that there is not a mr goodcents on the side of the theater.

I just don't get it I guess.

i am so tired of this shit. like kclover just said, a lot of you are so goddamned ungrateful it is sad. you got this amazing beautiful repalcement for 2-2block surface parking lots, 2 delapitated haunted houses, and weeds, and you complain because there is not retail on the ground level of every single inch that goes up in downtown.

newsflash people, i lived in new york and dc, when i lived in kansas city, i went to chicago three or four times a year to catch white sox royals games, an occasional chiefs bears game, just to hang out with friends, go to hyatt corporate hq, you get the idea, and when in new york, i went to boston very frequently. point of this rant? i have spent extensive time in dc, ny, chicago, and boston, and can tell you, that those four cities that flat out DWARF kansas city in every imagineable way, do not have this beloved retail all over the place. sorry, not happening. a lot of the newer consruction in manhattan for example, puts shit so far back from the sidewalk for security purposes, like newer residential and hotels, not only would it not be possible for street level retail to happen, even if it did it would not interact with the street level. in ny, take away times square, and parts of the village, you do not have millions of square miles of retail on the street level on every single block,  you just dont. in dc, it was far worse, that town was set up to be so unfriendly to pedestrians, it is sad.

yet we here in kansas city sit here and bitch every time a MAJOR construction project happens because there is not a quiznos or a hair salon at street level? PLEASE. there are not enough people living in kc to support that, and even with the 20-30,000 new residents that will come to downtown for the condos over the next 10 years, there still will not be enough residents. as a matter of fact, if downtown kansas city's population jumped overnight tonite to 200,000, that is STILL not enough people living dt to support all this goddamn retail you guys want, bellyache, and complain about. it is not. the retail comes online as the foot traffic necesitates it, and as more and more is needed, the exsisiting boarded up vacant retail at street level all along grand, mcgee, broadway, main, that is just sitting there now, will slowly get used up, but even that process will be retarded (slowed) by the fact that the p&l has a TON of retail space to fill, in addition to all these surface lots between 16th and 20th that are an eyesore that will get developed, then after that, the already vacant stuff will be gone. if all that happens, then we can talk, but for all that to happen, the amount of business/retail/residential coming to dtkc would have to go up by like 6-700%. that is simply not going to happen.

i am so sure of that because cities of ten million have not done that, and not just for security. go spend some time in chi town, or ny, or dc, or denver, or san fran, or san diego, these other cities do not have retail every single block in every single building. it is not feasible, and you guys bitching and moaning non stop about it not happening in kc are living in a dream world, a utopia of sorts, and bitching about what little that has happened positive dt in the last 10 years.

we should be so damn thankful to the late mr. bloch and the late mr. durwood for trying to hard and never giving up on dt, because the reality of it is, you guys want to criticize every single new project that goes on down there because there is not a nail place, sushi bar, or hair salon in the first floor of every building, when, that happens in NO other city to begin with. so save that shit.

[Highlander]

i am so tired of this shit. like kclover just said, a lot of you are so goddamned ungrateful it is sad. you got this amazing beautiful repalcement for 2-2block surface parking lots, 2 delapitated haunted houses, and weeds, and you complain because there is not retail on the ground level of every single inch that goes up in downtown.

i am so sure of that because cities of ten million have not done that, and not just for security. go spend some time in chi town, or ny, or dc, or denver, or san fran, or san diego, these other cities do not have retail every single block in every single building. it is not feasible, and you guys bitching and moaning non stop about it not happening in kc are living in a dream world, a utopia of sorts, and bitching about what little that has happened positive dt in the last 10 years.

we should be so damn thankful to the late mr. bloch and the late mr. durwood for trying to hard and never giving up on dt, because the reality of it is, you guys want to criticize every single new project that goes on down there because there is not a nail place, sushi bar, or hair salon in the first floor of every building, when, that happens in NO other city to begin with. so save that shit.

Very good post.  I agree.  There is just no way that downtown KC is going to be covered at ground level by retail and entertainment venues....it's simply too large of an area for the amount of retail the local and even metropolitan market will support.  The interior of the P&L District will hopefully consist of the kind of retail/entertainment density that the dectractors in this thread speak of and that will link up with other nodes of development elsewhere in downtown but you have to expect the odd blank wall to exist in between. 

In regards to European cities, these are not good analogs for American cities.  I wish we could emulate some European cities but I have given up any hope of that.  The beasts are just way too different.  In European cities, the overwhelming bulk of the commercial activitity is concentrated in the city centers.  A city the size of Munich, for example, has most of its shopping and restaurant venues concentrated in a few square blocks in the center of the city.  In all US cities, and Kansas City in particular, there are a host of concentrated suburban centers as well as the Plaza area not to mention the myriad of smaller strip malls found everywhere.  Little wonder why the demand is not there to fill up the relatively huge area that downtown occupies.  This was not the case in the concentrated cities of the 30's and 40's but we've since opened Pandora's box and putting that jeanie back in the bottle is going to take generations.

The downtowns of the 30's and 40's, when the actual scale of downtown was determined, served the entire city not just a small population of recent returnees.  Until the downtown population approaches the population of KC in 1940, I am afraid downtown's size will be out of equilibrium with its development potential.  I am just happy to get a concentrated area like the P&L District and go forward from there. 

[Tosspot]

Quick, someone go back and fine where I said they should have incorporated "street-level retail" into this. Oh right, you won't be able to, because that's not what I was saying. What I said was there are ways to get around affronting the street with blank walls. Chef, as usual you go off on a bloviating tirade without understanding the initial complaint.

The sidewalk treatment is just as bad for the north and south sides of City Center Square, as well as the north and south sides of OneKCP.

[ShowMeKC]

ditto toss, I never said they should have put street level retail on this specific site. My point was merely that we cannot do this all over Downtown.

And Chef, just because those cities are doing that, doesn't make it good planning/design. Virtually no Downtown in the whole country is designed/planned completely right. Including ours.

Ours has problems, but we need to correct them. Not every location need street level retail, however they need their buildings to interact with the street and sidewalks.

Again, I never said they should put retail on every block, I just made a point that we cannot have these type of locations all over Downtown. I'm fine with this location because it will have retail and a 27-42 floor condo/hotel tower across from it. That is enough for about 500-600 regular residents, and probably 150-200 visitors.

I also realize there is a theatre behind that, they can at least allow some art to be placed on that wall. But they definitely need to do something that makes that wall more sidewalk friendly.

I am not dumb either, I know we cannot support all that retail. Most of it is going to be big chains that are more expensive. When I say retail, I don't mean quiznos, mcdonalds, starbucks, hard rock cafe, espn zone, etc... I'm talking about small businesses and privately owned retail. Things that local residents will actually use regularly.

We cannot just build things when they come and expect everything to be ok. There has to be variety in the things we put in. Right now, the area is doing great in putting some variety in, but we definitely have to keep developers from duplicating too many successful uses in one area.

But I do agree, we don't have enough people to support a lot of retail. But I'm not saying we need retail on every block, but every building should interact with the street in some way. We cannot and should not design streets to funnel people to an area. That is terrible planning and should never be done.

[macnw]

I have to chime in here. I'll ride the fence here. If that wall were bland concrete, that would be one thing. It's pretty nice material and it does serve a purpose. It can and may be easily modified by hanging some kind of banner/artwork off the side of the wall. It's not as hopeless as peeps make it sound. I'm also guessing that thousands of workers will be strolling back and forth throughout the day. These workers could have been strolling somewhere else, very easily. Take that for what its worth. The building itself will create interaction with the street because of the proximity of the theater. These "interactions" would not have existed if Block had bolted to JOCO. More people will be on the streets of downtown KC and that is the main point. Get creative with ways to improve the wall versus focusing on all the negative aspects. Maybe that should be the take away. Something is built, everyone will not be pleased, but can we find creative ways to improve the experience for all involved. Bloch seems pretty open to new ideas. Hell, they came downtown when others scoffed at the idea.

[shaffe]

alright urban design geniuses (showme, toss), what do YOU put there to make it so great?

[KCPowercat]

Yeah they should have put ground level retail there...screw the stage.  &


Get over yourselves....or move to whatever city you think is cool right now....I'm sure you'll find horrible design there too.

[Long]

Look you boneheads

There is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS another way to design a building. 

Maybe the theater could have been on the south end of that building, in the middle of the block, with the other smaller scale uses (with all those windows) placed on the north.  Shove the restaurant up against the theater so that blank wall isn't on the courtyard.

I'm so sick of seeing a design criticism met with "oh would you rather they didn't build it at all."  No freakin duh, the new building is better than the surface lot.  Is it the world's greatest architectural blunder?  No.  Will the theater or the P&L district fail because the building isn't a great design?  No.  That doesn't mean it could not have been done better.  Would I trade it for a surface lot?  Come on.

It's amazing how many people on these boards talk about what this city lacks.  They defend mediocrity, sometimes even strive for mediocrity, then they can't figure out why our city isn't better.

[Tosspot]

alright urban design geniuses (showme, toss), what do YOU put there to make it so great?

Uh, maybe some windows at least?

Yeah they should have put ground level retail there...screw the stage.  &


Get over yourselves....or move to whatever city you think is cool right now....I'm sure you'll find horrible design there too.

I'm guessing you're another member of the contingent here who has never visited cities outside the US that don't pander to the design mediocrity paradigm that most of this board insipidly defends and rallies for.

Oh, and by the way, the NABC appears to be a complete piece of shit, but that's for another thread. Again, I'm sure 75% of you will caterwaul back at me with "WELL IT'S BETTER THAN A SURFACE LOT ISN'T!?" again owing to the mentality of desperation in this city regarding the design of more contemporary developments.

[ShowMeKC]

Thank you Long, but I think your arguement could have been better if it were less aggressive. (just my opinion)

Like I said, and some of you need to read my posts. I'm not saying anything against this location, I'm just saying we cannot repeat this around Downtown.
Personally, I'd like to see artwork, or even advertisements for the Repertory theatre to go here. Heck, they could even extend the width of the sidewalk and encourage a few kiosks. But like I said, I have nothing against this block or this design. As this location will have 240 condos plus probably 80-150 hotel rooms, plus retail across from it, that will help this location.
If you have a location like this, then something should be done to encourage the use of the sidewalk, other than just making it a funnel for another location.

If your going to develop, do it right, and don't accept anything less than that. I'm not upset this location is like this. I'm merely trying to point out that this is bad if it's repeated across Downtown.

[KCPowercat]

Uh, maybe some windows at least?

I'm guessing you're another member of the contingent here who has never visited cities outside the US that don't pander to the design mediocrity paradigm that most of this board insipidly defends and rallies for.

Oh, and by the way, the NABC appears to be a complete piece of shit, but that's for another thread. Again, I'm sure 75% of you will caterwaul back at me with "WELL IT'S BETTER THAN A SURFACE LOT ISN'T!?" again owing to the mentality of desperation in this city regarding the design of more contemporary developments.

Yes I would rather have the power & light district than a surface lot.....like long said, there is always another way they could have designed it....don't like it?  sitting here typing isn't going to do anything to fix it, so save it.  Go get a architectural degree and start designing...you complain about not having a job...go to DeVry and do something about it.