Ferguson, Missouri

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aknowledgeableperson
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

but people would have accepted it
I seriously doubt that. People were wanting, or demanding, justice for Michael Brown and to get that only a conviction would have sufficed.

The problem with a trial is who of the so-called witnesses would the prosecutor call to testify? Leave a few out that were publicly known beforehand and you would have people questioning the efforts of the prosecutor to convict. Have them all testify with their conflicting stories and then the prosecutor would be accused of confusing the jury.

In other words with all of the demands for justice the prosecutor, even a special one, has been and would have been in a no-win situation.

In listening to and reading all the talk by the Brown family supporters afterwards there is criticism of the questioning of Wilson in the grand jury or the process but none made comments about the witnesses who changed their story to fit the evidence or even admitted they didn't see the incident or were not there.

Of course the damage due to the rioting may have been less if Brown's stepfather would not have said "Burn this bitch down!".

But wouldn't it have been nice if this shooting would not have happened in the first place. Not so much blaming Wilson but blaming the training he did receive. In a TV interview he said his training kicked in. Here is a take on maybe what the country needs to focus on. From Time Magazine, Nov 24, 2014 issue, written by Joe Klein
To avoid another Ferguson, we should be taking a lesson on police training from the SEALs

...But justifiable homicide does not equal unpreventable homicide. This killing didn’t need to happen.

“Of course it didn’t,” says Lew Hicks, a former Navy SEAL who has taught arrest-and-control methods to an estimated 20,000 police trainees across the country. Hicks was reluctant to talk about which specific techniques he would have used, because he wasn’t there. “I do teach weapon retainment, but that’s not the point. It’s how you carry yourself in the community you serve. You have to project calm and confidence,” he told me. “You have to be trained physically, mentally and even spiritually to make moral decisions instinctively, spur of the moment.” Wilson had placed himself on the defensive from the start. By all accounts, he was sitting in his car, talking to Brown through his open window. He needed to get out of the car and subtly establish his authority. Things like tone of voice, body language and facial expression can make all the difference.

I first met Lew Hicks 13 years ago, when he was part of the most rigorous and creative police-training program ever attempted in the U.S. It was called the Police Corps, and it was founded by Adam Walinsky, a crusty and contentious former Marine and aide to Robert F. Kennedy. After the Detroit riots in 1967–43 civilians were killed and hundreds injured–Walinsky spent the next 20 years studying police practices, from the pavement up. His original thought was to create an elite program that would lure graduates from top colleges to do four years of service in return for scholarship money and a fast track to graduate school. In the end, the recruits mostly came from state colleges, and they were kids who wanted to become cops anyway. Bill Clinton was the first board chairman of the Police Corps, and his Administration funded the program in 1995.

Training was the heart of the Corps. It was full-time residential, a form of boot camp. It was far more physical than routine training–the graduates were superfit–but the mental conditioning was rigorous as well. Indeed, it very much resembled the training the military provides for special operators like SEALs and Green Berets. It was situational: actors and retired cops were hired to play miscreants, and recruits were judged on how well they responded to spur-of-the-moment situations. Even the firing range was situational: it was paintball, and you could easily be “shot” if you made the wrong call. There was required reading about urban poverty, police work and leadership. Recruits were required to mentor troubled boys and girls. And Hicks taught them how to be: how to use their hands, how to present themselves, how to protect themselves. “I can pick out the Police Corps graduates on the street just by the way they stand,” said Baltimore police chief Ed Norris, who was one of the first to embrace the Corps. In the end, Walinsky produced more than 1,000 of the best-trained police officers in the country, and many are still on the job.

The Police Corps was tiny and expensive. There was all sorts of opposition to it. Liberals preferred that the money be spent on antipoverty programs. Conservatives liked the idea but preferred that the money not be spent at all. It was killed by George W. Bush, at which point federal spending on police programs went entirely in the wrong direction by providing local cops with militarized up-armored vehicles, cammies, Kevlar, sniper rifles. This, at a moment when the military, especially the Army, was moving toward retraining its troops in a way that resembled the Police Corps. “We want them to be able to make moral decisions under pressure on the basis of incomplete information,” General David Petraeus once told me, using almost the same words as Hicks.
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AlbertHammond
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by AlbertHammond »

Interesting perspective on the political behaviors in recent weeks.
http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/blac ... ers-video/
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KCMax
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by KCMax »

Bodycams may not be a solution after all.

Cop cleared in chokehold death of Eric Garner
Cell-phone video of Garner’s July 17 arrest shows Pantaleo wrestling him to the sidewalk on Bay Street, with the white cop’s arms wrapped around the neck of the black suspect.

On the ground, Garner was heard repeatedly yelling “I can’t breathe!” as Pantaleo and other cops held him down and handcuffed him.

The Medical Examiner’s Office ruled Garner’s death a homicide caused by “compression of neck (chokehold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police.”

Police union leaders denied that Pantaleo used a chokehold — which is banned by the NYPD — and blasted the autopsy as part of a “political” witch hunt.
loftguy
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by loftguy »

Maybe it's just me, but there seems to be a pattern...

edit: Is the New York prosecutor going to tell us a bedtime story too?
Last edited by loftguy on Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bobbyhawks
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by bobbyhawks »

So, are they saying he died from immaculate asphyxiation?
phuqueue
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by phuqueue »

aknowledgeableperson wrote:
Let's hope that statue gets looked at , but not likely.
It's not just state law but various US Supreme Court decisions. One such article:

http://www.thenation.com/article/190937 ... indict-cop -
I think this article misunderstands the standard in Graham, how it relates to Garner, and how it is to be applied by courts. You wouldn't know it from reading that article, but Garner was already explicit in its application of the Fourth Amendment reasonableness standard to the use of deadly force (eg "there can be no question that apprehension by the use of deadly force is a seizure subject to the reasonableness requirement of the Fourth Amendment"). Graham (which, incidentally, involved a much lesser, although still egregious, use of force) makes clear that this standard applies to all excessive force cases (lower courts in Graham had applied a different test based on substantive due process). It's true that reasonableness is an objective standard, but contrary to the article's assertion this also means that the "subjective snap judgments of panic-fueled police officers" are not supposed to be considered. The officer, panic-fueled or not, is to be held to the standard of an objectively reasonable person. Is it objectively reasonable to kill an unarmed person? Well, that's supposed to be for a (petit) jury to decide after considering all the circumstances and evidence. And maybe the jury would have found that Wilson's actions were "objectively reasonable" (or, more accurately, maybe the jury wouldn't have been able to find that they weren't), but now we'll never know. In any case, the implication that Graham somehow "reconstitutionalizes" the MO statute, which openly violates the ruling in Garner, is unfounded, and this is significant since the grand jury was instructed based on that unconstitutional MO statute, and not on the Garner standard.

For what it's worth, it might be hard to believe but I actually agree with Lenexa and phxcat that Wilson would almost certainly not have been convicted at trial. The evidence is sufficient to convince me of his guilt (clearly), but it probably doesn't meet the legal standard for conviction. Nonetheless, the ruling in Graham shouldn't be taken to mean that Wilson never should have been indicted in the first place. I don't think people would have been satisfied with an acquittal (as a lawyer I would have understood why it happened, but as a person I would have been extremely frustrated by it myself), but there's still something to be said for doing everything out in the open in a real trial, instead of having a clearly partial prosecutor playing defense lawyer behind closed doors.
The problem with a trial is who of the so-called witnesses would the prosecutor call to testify? Leave a few out that were publicly known beforehand and you would have people questioning the efforts of the prosecutor to convict. Have them all testify with their conflicting stories and then the prosecutor would be accused of confusing the jury.

In other words with all of the demands for justice the prosecutor, even a special one, has been and would have been in a no-win situation.

In listening to and reading all the talk by the Brown family supporters afterwards there is criticism of the questioning of Wilson in the grand jury or the process but none made comments about the witnesses who changed their story to fit the evidence or even admitted they didn't see the incident or were not there.
The prosecution and the defense will both call whatever witnesses they believe help their cases, and will cross-examine the other side's witnesses. This is how trials work. The jury will be left to decide which witnesses they considered credible, which parts of the story they believe, etc. That the jury will have to sort through conflicting and confusing evidence is not a reason not to have a trial, it is in fact literally the reason that trials exist.
aknowledgeableperson
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

bobbyhawks wrote:So, are they saying he died from immaculate asphyxiation?
Forgot to add
His health problems, including asthma and obesity, were contributing factors, the medical examiner said.
From Reuters.
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chaglang
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by chaglang »

True, the ME thought them contributing factors. But contributing factors in a homicide. Caused by manual strangulation.

At the beginning of the video Garner was standing on the sidewalk. He didn't seem to be in immediate danger of dying from obesity or asthma. He also explained that he was unable to breathe to the cop choking the life out of him. Here are his last words:

"Please don't touch me. Do not touch me. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe."

It'll be interesting to see how Tamir Rice gets blamed for walking through a park in broad daylight when the CPD drove up and shot him. The Cleveland Plain Dealer immediately ran a story about Rice's father having a criminal record, so it's already happening.
aknowledgeableperson
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

chaglang wrote:True, the ME thought them contributing factors. But contributing factors in a homicide. Caused by manual strangulation.

It'll be interesting to see how Tamir Rice gets blamed for walking through a park in broad daylight when the CPD drove up and shot him. The Cleveland Plain Dealer immediately ran a story about Rice's father having a criminal record, so it's already happening.
This is a quote from the ME in another case:
The New York City Medical Examiner’s office said in a statement “The classification does not imply any statement about intent or culpability, and as with all classifications made by OCME, the evaluation of legal implications of this classification is a function of the District Attorney and the criminal justice system.”
As I understand it homicide has two different meanings, one medical the other legal. In medical terms homicide means a method of death at the hands of another, whether directly or indirectly. It does not mean negligence has occurred.

With regards to Rice true he was in the park but he was seen also waving a pistol. Yes, it was a toy but he did have it in plain sight and it looked real and the report from the dispatcher to the police just said there was an individual pointing a gun at people.

Not saying in either case they had to die or that the actions by the police were correct. Even though the actions by the police were not correct it doesn't mean the officers went into these situations with the intent to kill. If these officers had received proper or better training it is quite possible that these incidents, and others, would have very different outcomes.
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beautyfromashes
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by beautyfromashes »

chaglang wrote: Here are his last words:

"Please don't touch me. Do not touch me. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe."
That's an awful lot of dialogue for someone who can't breathe. I thought they said he had a heart attack in the ambulance?
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KCMax
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by KCMax »

FWIW, the KCMO PD is handling community relations the exact OPPOSITE of St. Louis County, and should be commended for their behavior.
loftguy
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by loftguy »

beautyfromashes wrote:
chaglang wrote: Here are his last words:

"Please don't touch me. Do not touch me. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe."
That's an awful lot of dialogue for someone who can't breathe. I thought they said he had a heart attack in the ambulance?
Fucked up remark.
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beautyfromashes
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by beautyfromashes »

loftguy wrote: Fucked up remark.
It's terrible that this man died, but looking at the video I don't see anything that that officer did wrong and either did the grand jury. This was a 400-pound man that was put in a hold until he was taken to the ground. There was an intent to restraint but I don't see how people can be throwing around the word 'murder'. Once he was on the ground and subdued, the hold was removed after probably 7 seconds all while he was talking with the officers (my point). Tragic? yes. Murder? no!
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by phuqueue »

aknowledgeableperson wrote:
chaglang wrote:True, the ME thought them contributing factors. But contributing factors in a homicide. Caused by manual strangulation.

It'll be interesting to see how Tamir Rice gets blamed for walking through a park in broad daylight when the CPD drove up and shot him. The Cleveland Plain Dealer immediately ran a story about Rice's father having a criminal record, so it's already happening.
This is a quote from the ME in another case:
The New York City Medical Examiner’s office said in a statement “The classification does not imply any statement about intent or culpability, and as with all classifications made by OCME, the evaluation of legal implications of this classification is a function of the District Attorney and the criminal justice system.”
As I understand it homicide has two different meanings, one medical the other legal. In medical terms homicide means a method of death at the hands of another, whether directly or indirectly. It does not mean negligence has occurred.
"Homicide" means that a person killed another person, whether you are speaking "medically" or "legally." Not all homicides are illegal, but it's pretty hard to look at the Garner case and find that this homicide was so clearly justifiable as to not even warrant a trial.
With regards to Rice true he was in the park but he was seen also waving a pistol. Yes, it was a toy but he did have it in plain sight and it looked real and the report from the dispatcher to the police just said there was an individual pointing a gun at people.

Not saying in either case they had to die or that the actions by the police were correct. Even though the actions by the police were not correct it doesn't mean the officers went into these situations with the intent to kill. If these officers had received proper or better training it is quite possible that these incidents, and others, would have very different outcomes.
Well it's against internal NYPD rules to use a chokehold so in Eric Garner's case that's a swing and a miss on the "it wasn't the cop's fault, he just needed better training" argument.

In Rice's case, the 911 caller explicitly said that the gun was probably fake. Moreover, the cop apparently had a dismal firearms record, so you wonder why he was out there in the first place. It's one thing to say the training program itself is bad and should be reformed, but it's something else entirely to say that this guy got poor marks even in the training he actually did receive. Some of this lays at the feet of the Cleveland PD, but that doesn't exonerate the cop himself at all.
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beautyfromashes
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by beautyfromashes »

Why would anyone want to be a cop? You risk your life with every call or stop, everything you do is recorded on camera so you can never make a mistake, the people that you are trying to protect look at you with suspicion, if not downright contempt, and you get paid peanuts. Who signs up for that?!?
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

In Rice's case, the 911 caller explicitly said that the gun was probably fake
But the word "fake" was not relayed to the police. That's on the dispatcher.
"In the park by the youth center, there's a black male sitting on the swings. He's wearing a camouflage hat, a gray jacket with black sleeves. He keeps pulling a gun out of his pants and pointing it at people," the dispatcher said.
Yes, it was a "toy" gun but it was realistic and the orange piece at the end of the barrel, to identify it as a fake, was taken off. And from what I read the youth did reach for the gun in his belt when the police appeared, and that after a warning given three times to put his hands up.
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

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aknowledgeableperson wrote:
In Rice's case, the 911 caller explicitly said that the gun was probably fake
But the word "fake" was not relayed to the police. That's on the dispatcher.
"In the park by the youth center, there's a black male sitting on the swings. He's wearing a camouflage hat, a gray jacket with black sleeves. He keeps pulling a gun out of his pants and pointing it at people," the dispatcher said.
Yes, it was a "toy" gun but it was realistic and the orange piece at the end of the barrel, to identify it as a fake, was taken off. And from what I read the youth did reach for the gun in his belt when the police appeared, and that after a warning given three times to put his hands up.
Sounds like he was exercising his Second Amendment rights.
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im2kull
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by im2kull »

KCMax wrote:
aknowledgeableperson wrote:
In Rice's case, the 911 caller explicitly said that the gun was probably fake
But the word "fake" was not relayed to the police. That's on the dispatcher.
"In the park by the youth center, there's a black male sitting on the swings. He's wearing a camouflage hat, a gray jacket with black sleeves. He keeps pulling a gun out of his pants and pointing it at people," the dispatcher said.
Yes, it was a "toy" gun but it was realistic and the orange piece at the end of the barrel, to identify it as a fake, was taken off. And from what I read the youth did reach for the gun in his belt when the police appeared, and that after a warning given three times to put his hands up.
Sounds like he was exercising his Second Amendment rights.
As were the cops ;) Plus pointing a gun (Real or fake) that police believe to be real at a cop, will get you shot. Why are we even debating this? Jeeze..so many idiots in the world today. Is it any wonder that race is involved in all 3 of these incidents? Clearly race is the determining factor as far as whether you listen and obey a cops instructions or not. Perhaps that's why there's not more "Whites" being killed by officers?
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by phuqueue »

aknowledgeableperson wrote:
In Rice's case, the 911 caller explicitly said that the gun was probably fake
But the word "fake" was not relayed to the police. That's on the dispatcher.
"In the park by the youth center, there's a black male sitting on the swings. He's wearing a camouflage hat, a gray jacket with black sleeves. He keeps pulling a gun out of his pants and pointing it at people," the dispatcher said.
Yes, it was a "toy" gun but it was realistic and the orange piece at the end of the barrel, to identify it as a fake, was taken off. And from what I read the youth did reach for the gun in his belt when the police appeared, and that after a warning given three times to put his hands up.
The cops claim they warned him three times to put his hands up, but the incident was captured by a surveillance camera that shows the entire thing happened in two seconds. In two seconds, he was ordered three times to put his hands up and then visibly made a conscious decision not to comply? I mean the tape doesn't have audio (and this being only 2014, we obviously don't have the technology yet for clear, fluid video either!), but it's tough to imagine even hypothetically that all of that happened in two seconds, and it's even more incredible when you actually watch the tape (blurry and choppy though it may be).
Plus pointing a gun (Real or fake) that police believe to be real at a cop, will get you shot.
He didn't point a gun at police. He didn't even have a chance to point his gun at the police. There is one frame of the surveillance video in which he might be reaching toward his waist as the cops pull up -- the cops themselves are definitely insisting that's what happened -- but that's as close as he got to anything that might be construed as threatening. And before this happened, he had been walking around the park waving the gun around as people walked by and he hadn't shot anybody yet. The cops might not have been told that the gun was probably fake, but they definitely knew he hadn't actually fired a shot and should have factored that information into their threat assessment.
Jeeze..so many idiots in the world today. Is it any wonder that race is involved in all 3 of these incidents? Clearly race is the determining factor as far as whether you listen and obey a cops instructions or not. Perhaps that's why there's not more "Whites" being killed by officers?
Yes, I'm sure it's that black people are just inherently stupid, that sounds like a very reasonable explanation.
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beautyfromashes
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Re: Ferguson, Missouri

Post by beautyfromashes »

100-150 policemen die each year in the country. How many of those are cases where a police officer doesn't shoot someone because they are giving them the benefit of the doubt and the criminal reaches for a gun and shoots the officer? If I'm a police officer and I'm going to a reported gun scene, that person will likely get shot if they reach into their waistband after being told to put their hands up. Some thing for hitting and charging an officer. And refusing being cuffed for questioning means a take to the ground.
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