Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

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nota
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Re: Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

Post by nota »

LenexatoKCMO wrote: Let me see if I am right about where you are trying to go with this - Are you trying to analyze whether the people who live in the new areas provide enough tax revenue to fund their own infrastructure expansion and maintenance?

If so, its a fair question.  But there are at least a couple good reasons why this isn't the case 1) the people relocating to newly built areas are by definition coming from someplace else - if it is within the same city, then their move creates little to no tax increase.  The new house may have a higher property tax value, but the old house's value may well suffer from the exodus - especially if there is no one to move in.  Moving people from the established parts of a city to new parts of a city just isn't a big net revenue gainer.  2) As you get sparser in density, the actual quantity of infrastructure needed to serve those people increases dramatically.  Going back to the 100 people on one road v. 10 people on 10 roads example - on the first road, one person only needs to generate 1/100th of the cost in tax revenue to be self supporting - in the second example, one person needs to generate 1/10th of the cost in tax revenue to be self supporting.  Even if the dense road costs twice as much to build, its still cheaper in the dense setting (1/100th of $200 = $2; 1/10th of $100 = $10).  Not to mention that the dense road is more often than not, already going to be built and only needs maintenance, not new construction. 
Of course new developments bring more tax dollars in. No matter who lives in them. Taxes are often higher in the suburban areas. Apples to apples, I'm not sure, but the average 'burb house pays much higher taxes than houses in the city limits. Part of that of course is the valuation, but also if they bring more taxes in, there is more money to spend.

I'm still looking for an understanding of the per mile costs for the roads that someone posted below. Why do urban roads seem to cost more. Even if it is Florida, roads are roads.
LenexatoKCMO
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Re: Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

Post by LenexatoKCMO »

nota wrote: Taxes are often higher in the suburban areas.
  Not usually if it is the same city - KCMO gets the same rate regardless of whether you live DT or off Barry RD. 
nota
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Re: Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

Post by nota »

LenexatoKCMO wrote:   Not usually if it is the same city - KCMO gets the same rate regardless of whether you live DT or off Barry RD. 
Where the heck is akp when you need him?

I'm maintaining that where the lots are larger and the houses larger, the taxes are also larger. I don't know if it makes up a difference or not, just trying to understand.
lock+load
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Re: Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

Post by lock+load »

nota wrote: I'm still looking for an understanding of the per mile costs for the roads that someone posted below. Why do urban roads seem to cost more. Even if it is Florida, roads are roads.
Here you go nota, New Construction, Undivided, 2 Lane road, urban vs. rural.

Description
ASPH CONC FC,INC BIT,FC-12.5,FC6,PG76-22
ASPH CONC FC,INC BIT,FC-5,PG76-22
CLEARING & GRUBBING
CONC CLASS II, ENDWALLS
CONCRETE CURB & GUTTER, TYPE F
EMBANKMENT
FENCE GATE,TYP B,SLIDE/CANT,18.1-20'OPEN
FENCING, TYPE B, 5.1-6.0, STANDARD
FLOATING TURBIDITY BARRIER
INITIAL CONTINGENCY AMOUNT (DO NOT BID)
INLETS, CURB, TYPE J-5, <10'
INLETS, CURB, TYPE P-5, <10'
INLETS, DT BOT, TYPE C, <10'
INLETS, DT BOT, TYPE D, <10'
LIGHT POLE COMP,F&I,SGL ARM SM, AL,40'
LIGHTING - PULL BOX,F&I,ROADSIDE-MOULDED
LIGHTING CONDUCTORS, F&I, INSUL, NO.4-2
LIGHTING-CONDUIT, F&I, UNDER EXIST PVMT
LIGHTING-CONDUIT, F&I, UNDERGROUND
MAINTENANCE OF TRAFFIC
MANHOLES, J-7, <10'
MANHOLES, P-7, <10'
MITERED END SECT, OPTIONAL RD, 24" SD
MOBILIZATION
MOWING
OPTIONAL BASE,BASE GROUP 04
OPTIONAL BASE,BASE GROUP 09
PAINTED PAVT MARK,STD,WHITE,SKIP, 6"
PAINTED PAVT MARK,STD,WHITE,SOLID,6"
PERFORMANCE TURF, SOD
PIPE CULV OPT MATL, ROUND, 0-24", SS
PIPE CULV OPT MATL, ROUND, 25-36", CD
PIPE CULV OPT MATL, ROUND, 37-48", SS
PIPE CULV OPT MATL, ROUND, 49-60", SS
PIPE CULV, OPT MATL, ROUND,0-24"SD
POLE CABLE DIST SYS, CONVENTIONAL
REGULAR EXCAVATION
RETRO-REFLECTIVE PAVEMENT MARKERS
ROCK BAG
SIDEWALK CONC, 4" THICK
SIGN MULTI POST, 50 OR LESS
SIGN SINGLE POST- 12 TO 25
SIGN SINGLE POST- LESS THAN 12
SODDING
SOIL TRACKING PREVENTION DEVICE
STAKED SILT FENCE, TYPE III
STAKED TURBIDITY BARRIER
SUPERPAVE ASPH CONC, TRAF C, PG76-22
SYNTHETIC BALES
THERMOPLASTIC, STD, WHITE, SKIP, 6"
THERMOPLASTIC, STD, WHITE, SOLID, 6"
TYPE B STABILIZATION

Total








Quantity
1,501.87
594.18
14.12
36
10,560.00
54,493.51
1
1,180.00
250
1
10
36
5
1
21
21
17,907.00
689
5,280.00
5
1
5
40
10
1.2
6,253.87
14,467.20
2
4
16,250.67
2,328.00
168
56
200
800
21
19,360.00
135
1,056.00
5,866.67
2
20
2
23,467.00
1
10,560.00
250
2,645.87
3,168.00
1
2
25,813.33










Unit
TN
TN
AC
CY
LF
CY
EA
LF
LF
LS
EA
EA
EA
EA
EA
EA
LF
LF
LF

EA
EA
EA

AC
SY
SY
GM
NM
SY
LF
LF
LF
LF
LF
EA
CY
EA
EA
SY
AS
AS
AS
SY
EA
LF
LF
TN
LF
GM
NM
SY










Rural
-
74,320
211,052
41,633
-
607,058
2,761
13,782
2,680
50,000
-
-
-
3,405
-
-
-
-
-
103,245
5,721
-
53,951
216,814
84
60,913
231,909
985
4,552
45,827
-
18,991
8,609
42,220
54,352
-
122,355
651
-
-
7,219
19,352
573
-
3,351
13,200
1,353
270,143
32,440
-
-
109,449

2,434,949








Urban
197,481
-
211,052
41,633
206,765
968,295
2,761
13,782
2,680
50,597
59,661
154,411
13,948
3,405
177,503
7,988
28,830
13,828
34,690
300,916
5,721
18,900
-
459,972
84
-
300,936
985
4,552
51,316
162,401
23,512
777,259
42,220
-
13,888
122,355
651
8,480
235,547
7,219
1,935
5,732
45,995
3,351
13,200
1,353
210,844
-
1,377
7,840
92,434

5,110,285








Difference
197,481
(74,320)
-
-
206,765
361,237
-
-
-
597
59,661
154,411
13,948
-
177,503
7,988
28,830
13,828
34,690
197,672
-
18,900
(53,951)
243,158
-
(60,913)
69,027
-
-
5,490
162,401
4,522
768,650
-
(54,352)
13,888
-
-
8,480
235,547
-
(17,417)
5,159
45,995
-
-
-
(59,300)
(32,440)
1,377
7,840
(17,014)

  2,675,336
LenexatoKCMO
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Posts: 14667
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Location: Valentine

Re: Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

Post by LenexatoKCMO »

lock+load wrote: Here you go nota, New Construction, Undivided, 2 Lane road, urban vs. rural.

Description
ASPH CONC FC,INC BIT,FC-12.5,FC6,PG76-22
ASPH CONC FC,INC BIT,FC-5,PG76-22
CLEARING & GRUBBING
CONC CLASS II, ENDWALLS
CONCRETE CURB & GUTTER, TYPE F
EMBANKMENT
FENCE GATE,TYP B,SLIDE/CANT,18.1-20'OPEN
FENCING, TYPE B, 5.1-6.0, STANDARD
FLOATING TURBIDITY BARRIER
INITIAL CONTINGENCY AMOUNT (DO NOT BID)
INLETS, CURB, TYPE J-5, <10'
INLETS, CURB, TYPE P-5, <10'
INLETS, DT BOT, TYPE C, <10'
INLETS, DT BOT, TYPE D, <10'
LIGHT POLE COMP,F&I,SGL ARM SM, AL,40'
LIGHTING - PULL BOX,F&I,ROADSIDE-MOULDED
LIGHTING CONDUCTORS, F&I, INSUL, NO.4-2
LIGHTING-CONDUIT, F&I, UNDER EXIST PVMT
LIGHTING-CONDUIT, F&I, UNDERGROUND
MAINTENANCE OF TRAFFIC
MANHOLES, J-7, <10'
MANHOLES, P-7, <10'
MITERED END SECT, OPTIONAL RD, 24" SD
MOBILIZATION
MOWING
OPTIONAL BASE,BASE GROUP 04
OPTIONAL BASE,BASE GROUP 09
PAINTED PAVT MARK,STD,WHITE,SKIP, 6"
PAINTED PAVT MARK,STD,WHITE,SOLID,6"
PERFORMANCE TURF, SOD
PIPE CULV OPT MATL, ROUND, 0-24", SS
PIPE CULV OPT MATL, ROUND, 25-36", CD
PIPE CULV OPT MATL, ROUND, 37-48", SS
PIPE CULV OPT MATL, ROUND, 49-60", SS
PIPE CULV, OPT MATL, ROUND,0-24"SD
POLE CABLE DIST SYS, CONVENTIONAL
REGULAR EXCAVATION
RETRO-REFLECTIVE PAVEMENT MARKERS
ROCK BAG
SIDEWALK CONC, 4" THICK
SIGN MULTI POST, 50 OR LESS
SIGN SINGLE POST- 12 TO 25
SIGN SINGLE POST- LESS THAN 12
SODDING
SOIL TRACKING PREVENTION DEVICE
STAKED SILT FENCE, TYPE III
STAKED TURBIDITY BARRIER
SUPERPAVE ASPH CONC, TRAF C, PG76-22
SYNTHETIC BALES
THERMOPLASTIC, STD, WHITE, SKIP, 6"
THERMOPLASTIC, STD, WHITE, SOLID, 6"
TYPE B STABILIZATION

Total








Quantity
1,501.87
594.18
14.12
36
10,560.00
54,493.51
1
1,180.00
250
1
10
36
5
1
21
21
17,907.00
689
5,280.00
5
1
5
40
10
1.2
6,253.87
14,467.20
2
4
16,250.67
2,328.00
168
56
200
800
21
19,360.00
135
1,056.00
5,866.67
2
20
2
23,467.00
1
10,560.00
250
2,645.87
3,168.00
1
2
25,813.33










Unit
TN
TN
AC
CY
LF
CY
EA
LF
LF
LS
EA
EA
EA
EA
EA
EA
LF
LF
LF

EA
EA
EA

AC
SY
SY
GM
NM
SY
LF
LF
LF
LF
LF
EA
CY
EA
EA
SY
AS
AS
AS
SY
EA
LF
LF
TN
LF
GM
NM
SY










Rural
-
74,320
211,052
41,633
-
607,058
2,761
13,782
2,680
50,000
-
-
-
3,405
-
-
-
-
-
103,245
5,721
-
53,951
216,814
84
60,913
231,909
985
4,552
45,827
-
18,991
8,609
42,220
54,352
-
122,355
651
-
-
7,219
19,352
573
-
3,351
13,200
1,353
270,143
32,440
-
-
109,449

2,434,949








Urban
197,481
-
211,052
41,633
206,765
968,295
2,761
13,782
2,680
50,597
59,661
154,411
13,948
3,405
177,503
7,988
28,830
13,828
34,690
300,916
5,721
18,900
-
459,972
84
-
300,936
985
4,552
51,316
162,401
23,512
777,259
42,220
-
13,888
122,355
651
8,480
235,547
7,219
1,935
5,732
45,995
3,351
13,200
1,353
210,844
-
1,377
7,840
92,434

5,110,285








Difference
197,481
(74,320)
-
-
206,765
361,237
-
-
-
597
59,661
154,411
13,948
-
177,503
7,988
28,830
13,828
34,690
197,672
-
18,900
(53,951)
243,158
-
(60,913)
69,027
-
-
5,490
162,401
4,522
768,650
-
(54,352)
13,888
-
-
8,480
235,547
-
(17,417)
5,159
45,995
-
-
-
(59,300)
(32,440)
1,377
7,840
(17,014)

  2,675,336







That's "rural" not suburban.  Most of the differences are due to no sidewalks, lighting, driveways, etc. - not a representative comparison. 
nota
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Re: Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

Post by nota »

LenexatoKCMO wrote: That's "rural" not suburban.  Most of the differences are due to no sidewalks, lighting, driveways, etc. - not a representative comparison. 
my suburban neighborhood had sidewalks, driveways and lighting. Sidewalks on BOTH sides of the street unlike some others.
KC0KEK
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Re: Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

Post by KC0KEK »

lock+load wrote: Here you go
This doesn't appear to include the cost of land acquisition. Wouldn't that be higher in urban and suburban areas because you might have to buy out some homes and businesses?
LenexatoKCMO
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Re: Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

Post by LenexatoKCMO »

KC0KEK wrote: This doesn't appear to include the cost of land acquisition. Wouldn't that be higher in urban and suburban areas because you might have to buy out some homes and businesses?
That actually illustrates the fundamental issue here - the urban road usaully already exists!  It just need maintenance and occasional improvements.  The built from scratch comparison isn't all that accurate since there aren't often streets being built from scratch in urban areas. 
KC0KEK
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Re: Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

Post by KC0KEK »

LenexatoKCMO wrote: That actually illustrates the fundamental issue here - the urban road usaully already exists!  It just need maintenance and occasional improvements. 
But what about when the urban road has to be expanded (e.g., additional lanes alongside or on a deck)?
LenexatoKCMO
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Re: Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

Post by LenexatoKCMO »

nota wrote: Where the heck is akp when you need him?

I'm maintaining that where the lots are larger and the houses larger, the taxes are also larger. I don't know if it makes up a difference or not, just trying to understand.
Yes - the suburban house may have more assessed value - why?  Because its owners abandoned the older house - making it less valuable than it could be.  If all of the people moving to the new construction areas are coming from other distant cities, than yes, they may represent a net gain in tax income - but when they are coming from within - no so much.  And at what cost?  If they stayed put - none of that stuff has to be built and the city still gets the taxes.  So the city gets a slight bump in the assessed value of the new property - but look what they had to build to get it.  
LenexatoKCMO
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Re: Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

Post by LenexatoKCMO »

KC0KEK wrote: But what about when the urban road has to be expanded (e.g., additional lanes alongside or on a deck)?
Those kind of footprint expansions are extremely rare in dense environments.  There has to be immense demand to justify such a project - probably fueled by outside traffic coming in from sprawled locations.  When was the last time one of the surface streets in the RCP was significantly expanded?  During the lifetime of any forum members?  On the highway front - 71 was built through semi-urban areas - that was a once-in-several-generations project and was mostly built to serve suburban expansion.  Meanwhile, the southern stretch of 435 is facing like its fourth or fifth major expansion in the last ~decade. 
LenexatoKCMO
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Re: Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

Post by LenexatoKCMO »

nota wrote: my suburban neighborhood had sidewalks, driveways and lighting. Sidewalks on BOTH sides of the street unlike some others.
I also question what they mean by "urban" - I suspect it really means suburban.  Anyone ever seen an undivided, urban street that would require $46k worth of sod?
KC0KEK
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Re: Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

Post by KC0KEK »

LenexatoKCMO wrote: Those kind of footprint expansions are extremely rare in dense environments.  There has to be immense demand to justify such a project - probably fueled by outside traffic coming in from sprawled locations.  When was the last time one of the surface streets in the RCP was significantly expanded?  During the lifetime of any forum members?  On the highway front - 71 was built through semi-urban areas - that was a once-in-several-generations project and was mostly built to serve suburban expansion.  Meanwhile, the southern stretch of 435 is facing like its fourth or fifth major expansion in the last ~decade. 
This article (http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/ ... tory1.html) focuses on I-285 in a suburban rather than urban part of Atlanta, but I thought this part was interesting: "Other cities with double-decked roads built or under consideration include Austin, Houston and San Antonio, Texas; Birmingham, Ala.; Los Angeles; New York; Seattle; St. Louis; Tampa, Fla., and densely populated areas in Europe and Japan."

The article also mentions that Tampa double-decked a highway that runs through its downtown. I've been on double-decked highways in Tokyo's urban core, but I don't know when they were built.

At any rate, you're probably right that many of these expansions -- up or out -- were built to accommodate more people commuting from the 'burbs.
LenexatoKCMO
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Re: Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

Post by LenexatoKCMO »

KC0KEK wrote: At any rate, you're probably right that many of these expansions -- up or out -- were built to accommodate more people commuting from the 'burbs.
Exactly - plus how many hundreds of miles of suburban freeway expansion do you figure they have added over the last few decades in Atlanta, LA, Tampa, et al. before they decided to tackle the task of decking a CBD route?
KC0KEK
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Re: Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

Post by KC0KEK »

LenexatoKCMO wrote: Exactly - plus how many hundreds of miles of suburban freeway expansion do you figure they have added over the last few decades in Atlanta, LA, Tampa, et al. before they decided to tackle the task of decking a CBD route?
BTW, by "deck" I meant a second roadway atop the existing one, not burying one, as with Boston's Big Dig. For example, when I lived on Long Island 20 years ago, there already was talk of decking practically the whole length of the Long Island Expressway. I recall reading at the time that 12 lanes in each direction (!) would be needed by today. Crazy, but then again, Nassau and Suffolk counties together are basically the population of metro KC, if not more these days. That's a lot of people moving around.
LenexatoKCMO
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Re: Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

Post by LenexatoKCMO »

Yeah, we were on the same page - "deck" gets used for more than one context. 
nota
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Re: Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

Post by nota »

LenexatoKCMO wrote: I also question what they mean by "urban" - I suspect it really means suburban.  Anyone ever seen an undivided, urban street that would require $46k worth of sod?
Back when I lived in STL, they put sod along lots of new streets in the city. North Broadway comes to mind. It was littered with beer bottles and trash the first day.

As far as the $46k, I believe that all construction projects for any government entity, city, burb, county or state are way overpriced and yet the get it.
nota
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Re: Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

Post by nota »

LenexatoKCMO wrote: Yes - the suburban house may have more assessed value - why?  Because its owners abandoned the older house - making it less valuable than it could be.  If all of the people moving to the new construction areas are coming from other distant cities, than yes, they may represent a net gain in tax income - but when they are coming from within - no so much.  And at what cost?  If they stayed put - none of that stuff has to be built and the city still gets the taxes.  So the city gets a slight bump in the assessed value of the new property - but look what they had to build to get it.  
I don't understand what you are saying here. If I sold my house in the city to move to the burbs, it gets a new owner/taxpayer and I go somewhere to pay taxes. I don't understand "abandoned"
aknowledgeableperson
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Re: Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

nota wrote: Where the heck is akp when you need him?

I'm maintaining that where the lots are larger and the houses larger, the taxes are also larger. I don't know if it makes up a difference or not, just trying to understand.
Throughout a city or county or school distric the tax rate will be the same for all properties within the jurisdiction with a variance for classification, such as land used for farming, residential, commercial, or whatever.  That tax rate will then be applied to the valuation.  The valuation is the appraised value for tax purposes, not to be confused with an appraised value with regards to buying or selling.  Both should be rather close but usually there is a difference.

Generally speaking the closer to the center of the city the appraised values of properties are higher.  For example (one I have sued in the past) my wife and I live in south KCMO.  We have looked at houses closer in but declined to purchase since the homes and lots were usually smaller and up to 40% more expensive than the house we currently own.


Sorry Nota.
I may be right.  I may be wrong.  But there is a lot of gray area in-between.
nota
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Re: Is America's suburban dream collapsing into a nightmare?

Post by nota »

aknowledgeableperson wrote: Throughout a city or county or school distric the tax rate will be the same for all properties within the jurisdiction with a variance for classification, such as land used for farming, residential, commercial, or whatever.  That tax rate will then be applied to the valuation.  The valuation is the appraised value for tax purposes, not to be confused with an appraised value with regards to buying or selling.  Both should be rather close but usually there is a difference.

Generally speaking the closer to the center of the city the appraised values of properties are higher.  For example (one I have sued in the past) my wife and I live in south KCMO.  We have looked at houses closer in but declined to purchase since the homes and lots were usually smaller and up to 40% more expensive than the house we currently own.


Sorry Nota.
Don't be sorry at all. Just seeking to learn. Thanks for your help.

FWIW-regarding jurisdiction, it has finally dawned on me that I think I'm the one with tax understanding problems. As 'burbs, I'm thinking of Parkville and OP and Liberty, etc-all with different tax structures. I believe that everyone else here is speaking of 'burbs, but inside KCMO.

I've also always found that bit about the closer in, the higher prices and taxes for less  as well.

Just for S & G-my house which was really in unincorporated KC rather than Parkville had just over $2k taxes when we bought it in 1998 and for this tax year, the taxes are just below $4.5k.

How are unincorporated parts taxed? I don't even know what an "unincorporated" part of the city is except that we got no services from KC. Ours were all from Platte County. We always thought there were some kind of under the table dealings for Monticello because the part of unincorporated KC we were in was just a tiny strip that covered only Monticello with KC on one side and Parkville on the other.
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