Could the P+L be a flop?

[aknowledgeableperson]

Kemper was built in the West Bottoms because according to Crosby Kemper III, on Victor Hogstrom's KCPT talk show, it was built there to service the American Royal. Everything else Kemper was used for was secondary to that consideration. Without the American Royal function, Kemper might  not have been built there.

To expand on Kemper's remarks, the city wanted to build a sports arena.  And it had to be built pronto in order to secure the NHL team that was awarded to the city.  Financing had to come together fast.  Money came from various sources.  The city approached the Jackson County Sports Authority to issue some revenue bonds for construction (this entity already had tax exempt status from the IRS and could issue tax exempt revenue bonds).  The city also wanted to use some general obligation bonds already approved by city voters in the 50's.  The catch was the money was to be used for an arena for the American Royal Association for its annual show.  And for the Royal its best location was in the West Bottoms next to its facilities and with the city in a corner all it could do was to bow to the Royal's request.  Even those two sources did not provide all of the needed funds so Kemper contributed some funds (naming rights?) to complete the financing, and Kemper would not have contributed those funds unless the building went into the West Bottoms for the American Royal.
So, given the choices at the time it was not a mistake to build Kemper where it is located now.  If Kemper wasn't built when it was built the city would not have had an HNL team nor some of the minor league hockey teams that followed.  And the city probably would have lost the Kings before it did because of the facilities the city had at the time.  One can speculate on many items that could have or would have happened but without a hockey or a basketball team there would not have been an incentive for the city to build a new arena for many years.

[KCPowercat]

when was the zoo built, like 1920?  I'm not sure any of us know the dynamics of the city to know why it was built there with any confidence...at that time, SE KC was a booming area.

the airport is in a perfect place IMO....inside the 435 loop with room to grow....15 minutes from my house.

[NDTeve]

Not saying Kemper wasn't right when built. Just became obvious it wasn't right at least 15 years before Sprint Center was built.

[KCMax]

I think Kemper is in a fine location. The city should have followed up building the arena with some sort of development in the West Bottoms. That was the mistake.

On the other hand, I'm not sure the idea that arenas should be integrated with entertainment districts was a big idea back then. The priority was simply "build an arena." They'd have to be pretty forward thinking to have built something like SC, and we've never been accused of being that forward thinking.

[knucklehead]

A big factor in locating Kemper Areana was a contribution received from the Kemper family.

Ole man Kemper was on the American Royal Board and made it clear he would only give the money if the Arena was located next to the American Royal.

I can't remember how big the contribution was. It might have been as little as 5 percent of the total cost. But Kemper's inistence that it also be used for the American Royal was a big factor.

[bbqboy]

When kemper was built, the stockyards were a going entity, and the stores and buildings were't abandoned. You are asking the city to be a swami in anticipating the advent of outstate facilities being built to process livestock.

[Maitre D]

I don't care why it was built down there, or the fact that it was.  I'm discussing why we made the idiotic decision in 1996 or whenever, to renovate that place.  We had a DT arena group (led by Bill Nelson) that wanted to use that 30M or whatever as the DT arena seed money.

But old man Cleaver thought he knew better.  I would call him an idiot, but Barnes turned around and pulled the EXACT same thing with the Royals.

[aknowledgeableperson]

A big factor in locating Kemper Areana was a contribution received from the Kemper family.

Ole man Kemper was on the American Royal Board and made it clear he would only give the money if the Arena was located next to the American Royal.

I can't remember how big the contribution was. It might have been as little as 5 percent of the total cost. But Kemper's inistence that it also be used for the American Royal was a big factor.

The amount was $3.2, which would put it at about 14% of the cost.  See:

http://www.kemperarenakc.com/default.as ... ID=0&hpb=1

[Highlander]

I think Kemper is in a fine location. The city should have followed up building the arena with some sort of development in the West Bottoms. That was the mistake.

On the other hand, I'm not sure the idea that arenas should be integrated with entertainment districts was a big idea back then. The priority was simply "build an arena." They'd have to be pretty forward thinking to have built something like SC, and we've never been accused of being that forward thinking.

My take is a bit different.  Kemper was built when I was in HS.  I thought the location was terrible then and I feel the same way now.  KC should have passed on Kemper's generous contribution.  Once the decision was made to put Kemper in the west bottoms, everything else was just spending good money after bad.  It made no sense to take a critically important venue out of struggling downtown KC and rebuild it in the already dead west bottoms.  We can argue the financial advantages until the cows come home but what good does it do to have something where it not only has zero impact on its surroundings, but the surroundings highly detract from the venue itself.  Kemper was destined to become the pariah of arenas, a destiny which it fulfilled; and the location went on to play a distinct role in the loss of two professional sports franchises. 

The city never should have tried to redevelop the bottom in the 70's (I do not think much of an effort was even made).  With a decaying downtown, any urban renewal action should have been spent in trying to rectify that situation rather than going to revive a veritable ghost town, phsycally separated from downtown.  It would have been a huge risk and still would not have addressed the downtown issue and the resources were not there to improve both downtown and the bottoms at the same time.  In the meantime, we continued to let downtown go downhill to the point that it bled businesses and their employees until it hit rock bottom in the early 80's (or later).  Sprint Arena already has shown the role that such a venue could have played at creating something in downtown in the 70's had it been managed and promoted properly.  I look at Kemper as one of the biggest mistakes in KC's modern history.  There were reasons for putting it in the West Bottoms but they were all poor.  We simply did not need a arena bad enough to build one that would become a total write-off 25 years later.  And MD is correct, if the original location was poor judgement, the 96 renovation was negligent foolishness.  Cities don't get many chances with building infrastructure, its frickin expensive, and that's why it is so critically important to do it right the first time. 

[KCKev]

Well I disagree . I have been to many great events at Kemper, many of which had no other place to go. Not Municiple aud. Or across the state line at Memorial hall. Something had to be built at the time. Doing nothing helps no one here in KC. Just look at the light rail crap that has been voted on but not acted on. The cost will be double when they decide to DO IT.

[18th STreet]

The problem with Kemper is it's location.
Poor access and little to nothing surrounding it.

[Highlander]

Well I disagree . I have been to many great events at Kemper, many of which had no other place to go. Not Municiple aud. Or across the state line at Memorial hall. Something had to be built at the time. Doing nothing helps no one here in KC. Just look at the light rail crap that has been voted on but not acted on. The cost will be double when they decide to DO IT.

They could have built it downtown with a little effort instead of taking the easy way out and putting it in the west bottoms.  The path of least resistance is rarely the best path. 

[KCKev]

Are scared of the west bottoms? I found with nothing around, it was nice tailgating and having a cooler of ice cold beer to enjoy before and after the brigade games. No one in a hurry to run you off. I think the bottome are a place that is going to catch on once the P&L runs out of steam because of the high prices to do anything there.

[FangKC]

I don't think the West Bottoms will be anything but industrial for years to come.  There might be a smattering of art galleries down there in some of the old buildings because they provide large expanses of cheap space. But I don't see anything new being built there unless it's industrial.

Why?  Because no one is going to invest a lot of money building new structures while there is ever a threat of flooding there.  The only way I can ever see that changing is if super-levees were built around the West Bottoms.  But I don't see the demand for land creating a situation where they would ever happen. It's much cheaper in the long run to build new structures elsewhere.

The West Bottoms only is attractive as industrial because of the proximity to freeways and rail.

[aknowledgeableperson]

They could have built it downtown with a little effort instead of taking the easy way out and putting it in the west bottoms.  The path of least resistance is rarely the best path. 

But given the time constraints and the amount of the contribution from AR interests the arena would not have been built at that time, and it would unlikely have been built for many years.  Instead of replacing an arena that is over 30 years old it is very likely that the city would be dealing now with an out-of-date arena, still without a sports team, that is 15 to 25 years old.  And who knows where it would be located.

[18th STreet]

^ I strongly disagree with this notion. As a mid size city with few resources KC must take advantage of every possible asset the city has. We can't afford to make mistakes, not a single one. The city saved a few million up front and suffered the long-term consequences. In the case of Kemper, trying to save a few million in land acquisition costs ended up costing us hundreds of millions more and the sports teams were lost within a few years. Also the negative effect on downtown during these decades with no arena can't even be calculated. Same in the case of the TSC renovation. Yes it's a bit "cheaper" to renovate than build a new stadium downtown but the cost difference is tiny compared to the pay off. The effect on downtown, our economy, our civic pride, and the fact that a downtown baseball experience with Union Station, Liberty Memorial, P&L, more transit access, etc. would draw more fans and likely keep the Royal here longer.

How many decades of urban renewal failure does it take for our leadership to learn these projects have decades-long effects if not done correctly?

Look no further than the possibility of the GSA building a massive complex completely disconnected from downtown on the riverfront to see how short-sighted, careless and neglectful of priorities this city is. These workers could be downtown. If only 5% of the workers eat, live downtown and spend in P&L daily that's a tremendous gain. The Govt District needs parking desperately. The Boley Federal building will continue to park on surface lots without the GSA and city building a garage. In this case KC could kill several surface parking lot problems, add workers downtown, and add residents and vibrancy to the east loop.

Imagine the Federal Reserve Bank, Dunn and GSA in the East Loop.
With those in place The East Village residential project would already be under construction.

[aknowledgeableperson]

The city saved a few million up front and suffered the long-term consequences. In the case of Kemper, trying to save a few million in land acquisition costs ended up costing us hundreds of millions more and the sports teams were lost within a few years.

There was way more than just saving land acquisition costs when talking about Kemper Arena.  Money connected directly to the AR was almost 1/2 of the budget of $23M so do not belittle the contribution of the AR interests.  At the same time the city was not able to freely take on a marge amount of debt to build an arena on its own.  Bartle Hall was just getting started and the KCI Airport was just coming on-line.  And except for a need to build an arena to house the new NHL team there was no push to build a new arena.  Not that the Kings were completely happy with Municipal Auditorium but given the state of a majority of the NBA arenas at the time they were not in that bad of shape.
And the location of the arenas did not cause the loss of the teams.  The Scouts came into existance when the NHL was in fierce competition with the WHL and costs escalated significantly over the course of a few years.  Plus the NHL was not generous in making good players available to the expansion teams and that resulted in poor play by the teams for many years.  The Kings were owned by a group of local businessmen who did not have the deep pockets to compete with the onset of free agency in the NBA.  As player costs increased the KC owners were in a bind (the Lakers signed Jabbar to a contract that paid him more per year than the Kings took in at the box office) and there was no Kaufman around to buy the team.  So outside owners bought the team and moved it to their hometown and played the first few seasons in a warehouse that sat far fewer fans than Kemper. 

[KCMax]

Agree with AKP, we lost the Scouts and Kings because both ownership groups were on shaky financial terms and were a cluster---- as far as organization. Kinda disappointing no one like the Kempers or Halls stepped up to buy either team, but back then owning an NBA or NHL team seemed like a money pit.

[18th STreet]

There was way more than just saving land acquisition costs when talking about Kemper Arena.  Money connected directly to the AR was almost 1/2 of the budget of $23M so do not belittle the contribution of the AR interests.

It doesn't matter what percentage of the $$ were allocated by the city or Kempers - the whole Kemper Arena project was a bust. From the shoddy construction to the pathetic and short-sided location it was a failure. The city wasted millions on (shoddy) design and construction and later renovation for a lost cause that set the city back untold millions. That's reality.

At the same time the city was not able to freely take on a marge amount of debt to build an arena on its own.  Bartle Hall was just getting started and the KCI Airport was just coming on-line.  And except for a need to build an arena to house the new NHL team there was no push to build a new arena.

No city is ever prepared to take on debt, yet KC gambled anyway and lost. The effect of the totality of the Kemper Arena failure can't even be measured in $$ and wasted opportunity. That's what they get for listening to selfish personal interest (Kemper family). Do what is best for the city, when will KC learn?

And the location of the arenas did not cause the loss of the teams.

Both teams moved within a short time of Kemper being built.
The Kings and Scouts/Rockies/Devils franchises are still very much alive and well.
These teams left because they weren't supported in KC - that's the reality.
I and many, many others believe that Kemper's terrible location was an issue.

[KCMax]

The Scouts and Kings were supported about as well as any other NHL or NBA team. To say KC was unique in that regard is false. The Kings attendance up until a move was announced was about the same as the Chicago Bulls or Atlanta Hawks. They left because the ownership group was in over their heads.

The Scouts were poorly supported, but the NHL on the whole was a garage league without much support outside the Original Six franchises. The NHL expanded too quickly without establishing itself as a major league support, and in its rush to infiltrate markets, found owners with financially shaky ground. 

The location of Kemper may have been an issue, but it wasn't much of an issue. I don't see how its much different from the TSC, which has drawn well throughout the years.